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Towing Performance

Discussion in 'Towing & Hauling' started by Javajim, Apr 22, 2021.

  1. Apr 22, 2021 at 10:44 AM
    #1
    Javajim

    Javajim [OP] New Member

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    I own a 2014 Tundra Platinum Crewmax Shortbed 5.7L. with 50k miles. Specs say my towing capacity is 9400 lbs. I am purchasing a 7500 lb dry weight, 9997 lb max load toy hauler.

    I have a Hensley weight distribution hitch and installed a Stillen CAI.
    I will be using the trailer for boondocking and touring trips.

    I am trying to make sure I have an adequate margin of safety and am considering the following scenarios and would like to get all y’all’s thoughts on them...

    1) Don’t load the trailer past 9000 lbs
    2) Install Supercharger (Magnuson)
    3) Install tuner (Bully Dog)
    4) Exhaust upgrade
    5) Replace stock transmission fluid cooler with an aftermarket unit

    I really like the Tundra but if it’s going to bog down too much I will have to trade it in
     
  2. Apr 22, 2021 at 10:48 AM
    #2
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Young men never die.

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    Step 1. Figure out what the tongue weight is going to be on that behemoth to see if it will put you over your payload capacity. Safety should be your first consideration here, not performance.
     
  3. Apr 22, 2021 at 10:54 AM
    #3
    Lake.Life24

    Lake.Life24 New Member

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    Welcome! Agreed with @Cpl_Punishment

    I had a similar scenario but with a tractor. I tried to upgrade suspension and other items, but eventually traded the truck in for a heavy duty. There is a clear difference. The tundra is strong and I know people tow/haul a lot of weight with these trucks. They claim they tow like a 3/4 ton but there is no comparison. Towing in the 9K-13K range, a solid 3/4 ton gasser would be perfect. Towing over 13K I would jump to a diesel.

    Obviously this is just my opinion. I got my truck for the same price as my tundra for reference
     
  4. Apr 22, 2021 at 10:57 AM
    #4
    frichco228

    frichco228 Valued Member

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    Tow capacity does not mean much on a half ton because you run out of payload before getting close to tow capacity. Check your payload numbers for your truck (sticker in door) and tongue weight of trailer. Add tongue weight and weight of everything you will be carrying, including the WDH- if that number is below your payload you are good to go.
     
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  5. Apr 22, 2021 at 10:57 AM
    #5
    gladecreekwy

    gladecreekwy Wyoming

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    This ^
     
  6. Apr 22, 2021 at 11:02 AM
    #6
    FadeToBlack22

    FadeToBlack22 New Member

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    AGREED!

    All the power upgrades in the world will not affect max payload rating which is what really matters in this case. If I were you I would put some of the money you plan on using for power adders into bigger brakes if anything. Above all, know your weights e.g tongue weight, weight of all your cargo/crap in the truck and trailer.....and stay within them. All of these things factor into how much payload you have eaten through. If you want to know for sure what your payload is just look at the yellow sticker on the inside of the driver side door jamb. I can't tell you how many suspect set ups I've seen over the years at campgrounds and on the roads. Hope this helps!
     
  7. Apr 22, 2021 at 11:14 AM
    #7
    Javajim

    Javajim [OP] New Member

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    Dry hitch weight of the trailer is 825 lbs which is under the max tongue weight limit
     
  8. Apr 22, 2021 at 11:18 AM
    #8
    FadeToBlack22

    FadeToBlack22 New Member

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    Not terrible. Just need to think about all the extra stuff you have to bring while boondocking and the load of fresh water in the tank plus some for black water. The weights can creep up quick. Do you plan on bringing a generator or solar for the trailer at the site?
     
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  9. Apr 22, 2021 at 11:18 AM
    #9
    Javajim

    Javajim [OP] New Member

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    The trailer has really great electric brakes.
     
  10. Apr 22, 2021 at 11:19 AM
    #10
    Javajim

    Javajim [OP] New Member

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    I plan on bringing as much as I can while staying under the load limits
     
  11. Apr 22, 2021 at 11:20 AM
    #11
    frichco228

    frichco228 Valued Member

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    825 is probably their unloaded spec weight they publish. Then probably 100 for the WDH, maybe 200lbs for you, and you are approaching 1200 lbs with no cargo or anything loaded in the trailer. So you can see how available payload quickly disappears with w half ton truck. Crewmax will have anywhere from 1170ish to 1300lb payload. Ill guess yours is about 1250.

    You have a crewmax, as do I, so you are going to be at or above payload once you add a passenger , not to mention any gear or any load in the trailer.
     
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  12. Apr 22, 2021 at 11:50 AM
    #12
    Javajim

    Javajim [OP] New Member

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    Payload specs are 1530, so it looks like I am covered pretty good
     
  13. Apr 22, 2021 at 1:02 PM
    #13
    frichco228

    frichco228 Valued Member

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    Are you getting that number from the sticker on the driver door sill or on the internet? I ask, because when I researched my payload for my engine, cab, config, internet searches would show payload at around 1500- 1550. And that was/is totally incorrect. Sticker on my truck is about 300lbs less, probably due to the big 38gallon tank and some of the other components like factory skids, etc. Perfect example of some incorrect data out there here- for my truck- https://www.cars.com/research/toyota-tundra-2016/specs/usc60tot10ac0/
     
  14. Apr 23, 2021 at 4:13 AM
    #14
    Buckaroo

    Buckaroo New Member

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    Would not recommend the performance upgrades as a priority for towing - plenty of power in the 5.7L as is. I find that smooth, slow starts & stops limits movement on items in the trailer and is best for my Tundra. Using the Tow/Haul selection helps a lot with accelerating from a stop. Plus, you will want to limit top speed to 60-65mph to minimize sway - lower when you have signficant cross-wind. I also think it likely you will find the stock trans cooler plenty capable. Toyota has actually done away with it in 2018+ Tundra's. Towing in S4 vs Auto will have the biggest impact on trans fluid temps - monitor your temps and see. As you have a great WDH, would suggest priority should be placed on brake maintenance, suspension upgrades & E-rated tires. Finally, get actual CAT scale data to verify where you stand on payload and some experience towing the rig before investing in your upgrades.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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  15. Apr 23, 2021 at 5:50 AM
    #15
    ezdog

    ezdog New Member

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    Considering that you already have the truck and seem determined to get the Toy Hauler too why not just do that and see how it tows in real life and then rethink things if you need to?
    You might be surprised either way.

    You seem to want to keep the Tundra which we all understand but talking about the dry weights is meaningless here as you are buying the trailer to haul toys which obviously will add to the weights and maybe be a big number,but you dont mention any details at all about the load you plan on in the trailer.
    Add to this that you may not really know until loading the trailer anyway and then get it weighed on a scale and see for sure,claimed weights are almost never near actual weight.

    No reason to over react if you are getting the trailer anyway get it and then react.
     
  16. Apr 23, 2021 at 7:52 AM
    #16
    BrakeDust

    BrakeDust New Member

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    I must endorse the speed recommendation. If there is no wind I can easily cruise at 70-75MPH, even big rigs don't cause any buffeting when they pass. Hands off the wheel if I dare, my combo is rock solid.

    But when there is a cross-wind, it's different. I'm not talking about a gentle breeze either, that's fine. When you're looking at wind that's 20-30MPH then you feel it. Remember you're already traveling at 65MPH, then the airflow experienced by your vehicle is actually 85-95MPH. Try going 75MPH in that wind and it's 95-105MPH. Aircraft can easily handle this because they are free to float around, but we are anchored to the ground.
     
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  17. Apr 23, 2021 at 7:57 AM
    #17
    mountainpete

    mountainpete Explore more

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    Small correction: 2018 has it. 2019 - 2021 does not.
     
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  18. Apr 23, 2021 at 8:00 AM
    #18
    gladecreekwy

    gladecreekwy Wyoming

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    We don’t F with cross wind in Wyoming. (The patrolman wasn’t injured)
    https://youtu.be/09sC4CyDQ1A
     
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  19. Apr 23, 2021 at 9:46 AM
    #19
    Javajim

    Javajim [OP] New Member

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    My plan is to pick up the trailer and tow it dry for a couple of days then do an assessment if I need to upgrade the performance of the Tundra or go with a 3/4 ton P/U
     
  20. Apr 23, 2021 at 9:59 AM
    #20
    snivilous

    snivilous snivspeedshop.com

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    I tow somewhat regularly, usually ~4000lbs (2500lb flat bed with a 1500lb UTV/gear) once a week. Quite a bit less than you, but regardless. I bought a supercharger specifically to help with towing, especially for towing heavier things (cars, my buggies, going to races, etc.). While I agree the truck has quite a bit of power stock, I have a need, a need for speed :D so I got the supercharger to help with hills and I can maintain a higher gear and not have the engine revved out so much in 4th (everywhere around me is mountains, so lots of elevation change). I also got the OV Tune (VF Tuner now), and I always leave it in S mode just because it keeps the converter locked up, which keeps the trans happy. The instant it unlocks the temperatures go crazy (I monitor it was TorquePro on my phone continuously). And then lastly the brakes I swapped out for drilled and slotted, and if I remember right went with EBC pads. The stock brakes warped on me, and haven't had any issues since. And finally, I upgraded my gearing to 5.29s recently to further make everything work less hard.

    I wouldn't say any of these increased my ability to tow, but they made it a bit more comfortable and added a little factor of safety, bit more power, more control of the transmission, and bit better brake performance. I wouldn't tow anything heavier than I did before, but the truck is all around happier and doesn't struggle to maintain speed on long hills or as much worry about heat soaking the brakes.
     
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  21. Apr 23, 2021 at 10:51 AM
    #21
    Javajim

    Javajim [OP] New Member

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    I have been doing some calculations based on intended usage. Toys while camping will be a couple of bicycles and fishing pontoons along with fishing gear.

    The trailer has a 76 gallon fresh water tank, 40 gallon gasoline tank for running the generator and two 30lb propane tanks. For a wet weight total of 956 lbs bringing the total before gear and food and other miscellaneous items up to about 8500 lbs so add 750 lbs of additional stuff and it comes to 9200. The generator is accounted for in the dry weight, however the solar panels are not.

    I don’t know how to account for the weight of the WDH, is that a trailer payload item or a truck payload item? It’s 190 lbs, so now I am bumping up against a 9400 lb total which is the lowest of all the max towing capacity specs I have found. The Toyota site specs say 9800 lbs.

    GVWR for the Truck is 7200 lbs, Trailer is 9995 for a total of 17,195 lbs. The truck has a GCWR of 16000 lbs. Curb weight of the truck 5560lbs. This means I could not carry much in the truck if the trailer is loaded to the max. One place I have a significant concern is the max hitch weight rating (950 lbs) which is only 100 lbs over the hitch weight of the trailer when dry, how much weight will be transferred when the trailer is full is unknown.

    As y’all can see I am right up against the limits and am looking to inject a margin of safety into the system. Where is the weak link in the system. Power? Suspension? Transmission? I can improve all 3 with enough money. I know it won’t change the ratings on the truck but they can make a difference in durability and performance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
  22. Apr 23, 2021 at 11:15 AM
    #22
    GODZILLA

    GODZILLA Hail to the King, Baby.

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    It's straight out of the truck payload, as the truck will be carrying the full weight of it.

    You said your payload is 1530? Is that from your payload sticker on your truck, or is that from a spec sheet in a book/online? The spec sheets are always superseded by the tag on the truck. A CM with over 1500 lbs of payload is not a common thing, especially not in 4x4 and a higher trim package.

    Everything you are saying sounds like you'll be over your payload, and pushing or exceeding your tow rating. Most would recommend against it, and some will call them the weight police. All that aside, the ratings of the truck are not based on one component. It's not just brakes, or just suspension. It's the whole truck. Braking, cooling, suspension, structural integrity, all of it. Sure, you can box/reinforce your frame, put in wider leaf springs, better cooling system, better brakes, upgrade the shocks and coilovers, install a higher rated tow hitch, build beefier A arms, a more powerful power steering set up to move it all, custom 6 or 8 lug hubs and wheels designed for the added load, replace all the bushing in the truck with higher wear components, tune and adjust the ECU for running with loads greater than the truck was designed for.

    Everyone on here is all on board with modding trucks, making them your own. Lots push the limits and have crazy long travel set ups, go bombing through the whoops and dunes, or climb crazy rocks. These trucks are very capable and can be modded to do lots of things safely, but trying to get a 1/2 ton truck to tow like a 1 ton is folly. To do it correctly you'll spend as much or more as you would to get a truck that is already designed to do what you want.

    You do as you want, but don't BS yourself into thinking the Tundra is going to tow that well, happily, or safely. You need a bigger truck or a smaller trailer.


    *Yes, I was intentionally dramatic to drive the point home.*
     
  23. Apr 23, 2021 at 6:19 PM
    #23
    Javajim

    Javajim [OP] New Member

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    My intention is to stay under the weight limits, just trying to build a higher margin of safety. Sounds like upgrading my springs is the thing to do.
     
  24. Apr 23, 2021 at 6:36 PM
    #24
    knoxville36

    knoxville36 New Member

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    James,

    What does the payload sticker in your driver door say?

    There is no way that trailer will even sniff making payload. Once it is loaded and leveled correctly, I guaranteed you are 1,100 -1,300 of tongue weight on that trailer.
     
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  25. Apr 23, 2021 at 6:41 PM
    #25
    knoxville36

    knoxville36 New Member

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    My 2019 Plainum weighed 6,440 pounds bone stock with me in it. I had 760 pounds of payload before a single thing was hooked to it or a single family member in it.

    I mean this with the utmost respect...... You do not have anywhere near 1,530 pounds of actual payload on that truck.
     
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  26. Apr 23, 2021 at 6:58 PM
    #26
    A-A-Ron

    A-A-Ron Done messed up

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    If you do this I would highly recommend getting a hitch scale, otherwise you are just guessing on your real loaded hitch weight. I think most CrewMax trucks are at about 1,200 payload rating based on the actual build options.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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  27. Apr 23, 2021 at 8:02 PM
    #27
    Javajim

    Javajim [OP] New Member

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    The sticker says 1305 lbs

    max tongue weight is 950

    the trailer dry is 7500, the hitch weight dry is 850, so about 12%
     
  28. Apr 23, 2021 at 8:14 PM
    #28
    A-A-Ron

    A-A-Ron Done messed up

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    The hitch weight can change a lot depending on how you load your toy hauler. It’s also possible to make your hitch too light (less than 10% of total weight) and create major handling issues. Still highly recommended a hitch scale.
     
  29. Apr 23, 2021 at 8:38 PM
    #29
    belanger9

    belanger9 New Member

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    Is this a once or twice trip a year, or more like once a month? If it's a rare thing then you may be able to load the trailer up right to be just barely under, then drive easy - no need to upgrade trucks to tow the very odd heavy load. If it's more like once a month I'd upgrade to a 3/4 ton.

    Honestly I wouldn't even recommend a next gen Tundra if it had 2500 lbs payload and 15k lbs towing because it's a half ton. Half tons are just not big enough to tow heavy loads like that consistently on the highway and be truly safe.
     
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  30. Apr 23, 2021 at 10:23 PM
    #30
    knoxville36

    knoxville36 New Member

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    All right, so let's do some math. I am only going to approach this from a "legality" stand point. Not saying the Tundra can't pull it or I would not do it a few times a year.

    The 1,305 of payload is before any modifications more than likely. If you have a tonneau cover, bed liner, tube steps, etc... These will reduce the 1,305 more. I had a soft tonneau cover, Line-X premium, and running boards on mine and those weighed 200 pounds. Those count against your payload so now you are at 1,105. For this exercise, let's say you do not have any of those mods and you weigh 200 pounds. You now have payload of 1,105 to work with.

    The trailer Manufacturer is telling you that tongue weight is about 12%. Let's use this number, but with a toy hauler they tend to get nose heavy from what I heard. I am being safe here, but let's say your trailer was at 8,500 pounds. Now your tongue weight is at 1,020 pounds since it is 12%. Now, you also have to add in 190 for Hinsley Hitch, 2x30 lb. propane tank of up front, and depending on battery location, if it is up front 45 lbs. per battery. Let's assume 1. That right there is another 295 pounds that pretty much is sitting in the tongue of the trailer. 1,020 + 295 = 1,315 pounds.

    Now, that 1,315 pounds is a little high. The weight distribution hitch is going to move some of that weight to the front axle of the truck and some back to the trailer. The weight still is what it is...... It is just moving some of the 1,315 pounds to the front.

    Keep in mind you said you had payload of 1,305 and 1,105 with you it. Without even any family or other goodies in the truck you are over your payload. Heck, there is a small chance with that trailer fully loaded parked with nobody in it you will be over payload.

    Not trying to be cocky, but I have been towing my whole life and am pretty dang close on my tongue weight. For that trailer to be comfortable towing, I guaranteed you will be in the 12-15% range of tongue weight to get the trailer to settle down especially if it is 30 ft. Long or so.

    Not saying the Tundra won't do it, or I wouldn't do it a few times a year. I am only making that point of how fast payload truelly gets ate up and then"legal" side of it.
     

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