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JBA Rant. Back to the drawing board with Headers (Kooks, ARH, AFE)

Discussion in 'Performance and Tuning' started by swank501, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. Apr 2, 2019 at 6:08 AM
    #1
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    Hey guys, I recently installed some JBA headers and I am just not happy with them. They leak around the head and I am just sick of messing with them trying to make it stop. You can blame me, but this is just a bad design. JBA is built fairly solidly, but the sealing mechanism was not very well thought out. Basically, the welds for the primaries protrude past the flange. JBA then mills or grinds the peaks of the welds down leaving a flat edge, but the weld still protrudes past the flange approximately 1/8". That protruding weld is the sealing mechanism against the graphite gasket whenever the flange is torqued down.

    The major flaw with this is that these welds are big shitty booger mig welds. They are also very inconsistent in the size and shape, albeit flat due to the machining process. The major issue, as I see it, there is no way to evenly apply pressure to these gaskets at the head interface. Pressure is a function of applied force and surface area. Since there is so much variability in the width of the ground weld, there is inherently a huge variation in the pressure applied to the gasket whenever the flange is torqued to the head. In other words, you get an inconsistent application of force across the gasket, regardless of how evenly or how much torque is applied. If a section of the weld diameter is appreciably wider than another section of the weld in the same diameter, then less pressure will be applied to the gasket at that section. Conversely, a higher pressure will be applied in the smaller section. I believe (due to this variability in shape) this is the reason some guys have no issues with the install (more consistent weld profile) vs others.

    My personal thought is that JBA should adopt a different machining process rather than just grind shitty booger welds flat. If they would machine these welds in to a radiused ring, with a consistent profile and surface area, then I think these would seal batter than anything out there. But they are fighting physics with the current design. Honestly I considered doing this, but the cost would exceed even buying the most expensive headers on the market, which brings me to my next point.

    I am done with JBA and am back to the drawing board.
     
    Myhobbes25, TheBeast, Sas and 2 others like this.
  2. Apr 2, 2019 at 6:21 AM
    #2
    deedubb

    deedubb New Member

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    No tundra specific experience, but I’ve installed some kooks headers on a previous vehicle and was very impressed with the quality of them
     
  3. Apr 2, 2019 at 6:44 AM
    #3
    UTTundra

    UTTundra New Member

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    Did you use the JBA gaskets? I've heard they suck. Do you think it would have made a difference if you used an OEM gasket?

    I installed American Racing Headers last year. If I understand your post correctly, ARH headers shouldn't have the same issue you're running into with JBA's. I'm no expert on header design, but everyone I've talked to say ARH and Kooks are superior. Not sure where Doug Thorley fall in the lineup. You do have to pay the premium for ARH, but they also come with midpipes, catted or catless. And you get them with or without the secondary air injection ports.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Apr 2, 2019 at 6:55 AM
    #4
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    Yeah I spoke with Nick, the owner of ARH, yesterday. Sounds like they have what I am looking for. I am just weighing options right now. I was scheduled to get a tune next week, but am going to wait until i can get this sorted out.


    Correct, ARH or any flat flange design should not have this issue since the MLS gasket style is so robust.


    Interestingly enough, the OEM MLS style gasket did not work with the JBA in my case. I know that there are some on here that have been successful with them, but again, i believe this to be due to the variability in the weld size.


    I had my transmission replaced with a level 10 build recently. The shop had to remove the passenger side header and reported some minor leakage on one of the cylinders with the JBA gasket. When they replaced the header, we decided to try an OEM gasket. when we laid it over the sealing area, we knew it would be a crap shoot. All the primaries looked like they would seal, but the EGR ports were iffy. Sure enough it ended up with another minor leak with the OEM gasket.
     
  5. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:01 AM
    #5
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    @UTTundra , did you go with the 1-3/4 or 1-7/8" primaries? Im supercharged and was recommended 1-7/8" by ARH. Cant really find any good data on one vs the other
     
  6. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:08 AM
    #6
    UTTundra

    UTTundra New Member

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    @swank501 I'm NA so just 1-3/4. Talking to ARH and Dustin at DAP Tune, they both seemed to suggest you can go up to 1-7/8" if you're supercharged, but even then, not really necessary unless you have additional mods pushing out a lot more power. If you haven't already, talk to Dustin at DAP Tune. He might be able to give you some info backed with a little data.
     
  7. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:09 AM
    #7
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    These seem to be the top 3 headers available right now and are reasonably close in price with a small advantage in price to the aFe

    American Racing Headers

    Material: 304 SS
    Origin: USA
    Primary Size: 1-3/4" or 1-7/8"
    Collector Size: 3"
    Gasket Type: Factory Style MLS
    EGR connection: Yes
    Cat Con: 200 Cell
    Cost: $$

    Kooks

    Material: 304 SS
    Origin: USA
    Primary Size: 1-3/4" or 1-7/8"
    Collector Size: 3"
    Gasket Type: Factory Style MLS
    EGR connection: Not specified
    Cat Con: Not specified
    Cost: $$$

    aFe

    Material: SS (unspecified grade)
    Origin: USA
    Primary Size: 1-3/4"
    Collector Size: 3"
    Gasket Type: Factory Style MLS
    EGR connection: Yes
    Cat Con: 400 Cell
    Cost: $
     
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  8. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:13 AM
    #8
    UTTundra

    UTTundra New Member

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    Here's what DAP had to say on 1 7/8 vs 1 3/4.

    Capture.jpg
     
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  9. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:14 AM
    #9
    Sas

    Sas Humor is everywhere

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    Lost track after #1.
  10. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:22 AM
    #10
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    Yeah I know that supercharged is pushing alot more air under boost, but i am not always driving boosted and dont want to risk anything if it ends up being too big. I have a request for quote out with the guys that are doing my tuning to procure and install headers. I asked what they thought on the sizing. They should get back to me today some time. Last known dyno numbers where 420hp and 430tq at the wheels. That was before the underdrive pulley, headers and soon to be tune though.
     
  11. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:25 AM
    #11
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    Interesting point that Nick made is that you have to specify EGR since most of their systems are sent overseas where that is either deleted somehow or not an option.
     
  12. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:28 AM
    #12
    UTTundra

    UTTundra New Member

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    Yes, mine came without EGR/Secondary Air Inj. I've seen older ARH headers from a couple years ago that came with them. My tune takes care of the check engine light, but I had to get it re-tuned since the light was showing up when I initially installed. I have both pumps unplugged now.
     
  13. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:29 AM
    #13
    ColoradoTJ

    ColoradoTJ Certified tow LEO Staff Member

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    Do you have any images of the JBA headers? Specifically the flanged side?
     
  14. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:49 AM
    #14
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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  15. Apr 2, 2019 at 7:51 AM
    #15
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    The above pic is the one that we took off for the trans install. Only one spot had a leak. Honestly i couldnt tell or hear it, but it was. you can see what i mean by variability in the weld profiles. It may seal fine, but it wont seal evenly.
     
  16. Apr 2, 2019 at 8:00 AM
    #16
    UTTundra

    UTTundra New Member

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    I've actually seen some JBAs that looked worse than yours. I think the guy sent them back before installing.
     
  17. Apr 2, 2019 at 9:24 AM
    #17
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    Kooks may be off the table. I could not find a direct part number for them so i called to get pricing and a part number. it hurt my feelings lol
     
  18. Apr 2, 2019 at 9:39 AM
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    UTTundra

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    Price? Does it include midpipes/cats?
     
  19. Apr 2, 2019 at 11:00 AM
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    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    Was quoted over 3k with catted midpipes and EGR provisions :annoyed:
     
  20. Apr 2, 2019 at 11:40 AM
    #20
    Toyotoholic

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    Just some peripheral info.... Being that you're Supercharged, you really don't need long tubes headers. The roots type blower is hyper efficient at pushing everything through and thus the purpose of the LT headers is practically negated. Just some info I got before I was going to buy the whole ARH system... I decided to just do a Dirty Deeds TRD dual system and not waste the money or headache of the LT/mid cats/ X-pipe situation. A supercharged LTH vs a Supercharged oem headered truck made the same HP... Zero gain with the LTH... Talk to Kieth @ Dirty Deeds... He has exactly what you have.
     
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  21. Apr 2, 2019 at 11:45 AM
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    UTTundra

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    I paid around 1875 for AR headers with cats, shipped. Ordered through DAP and got a small discount.
     
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  22. Apr 2, 2019 at 11:48 AM
    #22
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    I am a little skeptical about this information, no offense. No need to get in to a technical debate, my OEM manifolds have likely been remelted in to something at this point anyway.

    So im in a situation where i either need to try the install again with a 50/50 shot at success or go with a different header design.
     
  23. Apr 2, 2019 at 11:51 AM
    #23
    Toyotoholic

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    I hear you, but talk to Kieth. I was 100% ready to go LT until talking to him. Again, he has the same supercharged setup and has a F@ck load of experience with exhausts. Might be able to help you with whatever path you go.
    I was going to go with the ARH system... Badass
     
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  24. Apr 2, 2019 at 1:08 PM
    #24
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    In my situation, Headers was the only answer. My Stock upstream Catalytic converter died and needed to be replaced. A stock downpipe with Cat was about 1300 from the dealer. JBA's and O2 sims for the newly deleted u/s cats was about 750. Not to mention I got almost 200 in scrap value for my u/s cats.
     
  25. Apr 2, 2019 at 1:18 PM
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    MatthewPTguy

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    I just helped my buddy install some Kooks long tube headers on his 2012 SS Camaro... fit and finish on them was great. Bolted right on... no leaks. Sounded AWESOME!!!
     
  26. Apr 2, 2019 at 1:31 PM
    #26
    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    I bet they are awesome! I just cannot shell out that kind of money for a set. When i spoke to Kooks and gave him the configuration information, he told me they had never manufactured that config yet and it would take 3 weeks to build!
     
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  27. Apr 2, 2019 at 1:47 PM
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    Ryuu

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    Welp I was planning to get JBA LTHs but think I’m gonna reconsider my options now due to this thread and the last. That build quality is off putting.
     
  28. Apr 3, 2019 at 11:49 AM
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    swank501

    swank501 [OP] New Member

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    I spoke with ARH and think i've narrowed down to them. Last thing I am trying to figure out is the catalytic converter and the primary size. They offer a standard model with any build, but I did ask them if it was appropriately sized for my application. He did mention and offer an upgraded cat that does a better job at scrubbing the air, but also comes at a premium and adds about 5 hundo to the build. Not sure if it is worth it or not at this point, but I want to make sure this thing will pass Visual inspection and emissions with no issues (live in Houston TX). Any TX peeps on here have this system with the standard cats have any issues with inspection?


    Also I am still stuck on 1-7/8 vs 1-3/4” primaries. Literally getting told one or the other everytime I talk to someone different. Im supercharged and somewhere in the neighborhood of 420hp 430tq at the wheels. Plus whatever these headers add and a tune. So assume around 470/480 at the end.
     
  29. Apr 3, 2019 at 11:52 AM
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    UTTundra

    UTTundra New Member

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    Definitely talk to Dustin at DAP. He tunes Tundras out of the Fort Worth area, and is a distributor for ARH. He'll also get you on the right path of 1-7/8 vs 1-3/4. I'm sure he has experience with both.

    https://daptuning.com/

    I wouldn't think you'd have any trouble with emissions using just the standard cats. There's a bunch of TX guys with ARH in one of the DAP facebook groups. I've never seen any of them mention the premium cats.
     
  30. Apr 3, 2019 at 12:16 PM
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    GAknight

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    @swank501
    Where did you buy your JBA's?

    Like others I have been planning to buy the JBA's in the next few months (to be paired with a @dirtydeeds race exhaust).
    **Just a side note, Kieth is truely an awesome guy that knows his Tundras.
    If memory serves, he had some input with the JBA LT design. I'm sure he could offer some insight, for whatever it may worth for you.

    Seems like I recall there being someone else on here who bought some JBA "branded" headers. Turned out the were knock offs. Like you mentioned before, others have not had issues with JBA quality. I helped a buddy put some JBA shorties on a mustang, that were great quality.

    'Just curious is you truely got some bad quality, or perhaps some knock-offs?

    Sub'D for outcome. Good luck. :thumbsup:
     

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