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Fuel For thought ..Fuel cost savings outweigh risk of Turbo engine repair

Discussion in '3rd Gen Tundras (2022+)' started by kingspeedy1, Oct 28, 2021.

  1. Oct 28, 2021 at 6:48 AM
    #1
    kingspeedy1

    kingspeedy1 [OP] New Member

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    Fuel savings vs Potential Repairs

    I love a V8 and wish they just made it more efficient .The fewer rotating parts the better .I am buying may last big truck and should have it 10 -15 years and am going with either 2021 or 2022. Since I will be retired soon , I hope to rack up lots of miles seeing the world.
    Towing my car project around or a trailer of some kind

    I figured out potential Fuel savings between the 2 . Of course the 2022 will be more expensive initially. How much is yet to be determined. I did a spread sheet based on an average of 15mpg for the 21 and 20 mpg for 2022 as realistic numbers . and then a larger spread of 14 and 22 respectively since Youtubers where getting 22 on their videos . Some 5.7 Litre owners are only getting 12MPG .

    I realize gas prices are higher in Canada , and different between the states and provinces
    The more expensive the gas becomes ,the bigger the spread.The more miles you put on the bigger the spread

    Hear are a couple values from the spread sheet

    To summarize ,the Potential increased Repair costs with Turbos is easily offset by the fuel savings

    All values are approximate and in Metric and (Standard )


    Difference between 15-20 MPG over 100,000km (62,000 MILES) @$1.50 Per litre ($4.59Gal) = $5880 Can or $4759 US dollars

    Difference between 14-22 MPG over 100,000km (62,000 MILES) @ $1.50 Per litre ($4.59Gal) = $8400 Can or $6799 US dollars

    if you look ahead to $2 per litre ($6.12 Gal US ) In Canada as it was close to that’s this summer .

    difference from 15-20 MPG $2 per litre ($6.12 US Gal ) = $7840CAN ($6345 US )
    difference from14-22 MPG $2 per litre ($6.12 US Gal ) = $11,200 CAN ($9065 US)
     
  2. Oct 28, 2021 at 6:57 AM
    #2
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Young men never die.

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    I doubt you'll see any major repairs to the 22 in the first 100k kms, though.
     
    jhardy1979 and =JSG= like this.
  3. Oct 28, 2021 at 7:07 AM
    #3
    kingspeedy1

    kingspeedy1 [OP] New Member

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    Agreed on not seeing any repairs in that time frame.so its money in your pocket.
    May not see a major repair for 200,000k
    I just used 100,000k (62,000 miles) as an easy number people could work with to extrapolate their own expected mileage .

    thats 3 years of average mileage for some
    I have only put 125,000k on mine in 11 years as i work out of town 1/2 the year..
    i am curios to see what gas was 11 years ago

    I can plug in any numbers into the sheet
    It they want to forcast farther or work with their local prices..
     
    joseph_womack likes this.
  4. Oct 28, 2021 at 7:25 AM
    #4
    ThePolak

    ThePolak 2022 Platinum hunt/tow/haul/family ride on order!

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    This is great - thanks for this analysis and for sharing it.
     
  5. Oct 28, 2021 at 7:32 AM
    #5
    LuvCRVs

    LuvCRVs New Member

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    I drive my truck at most 9000 miles per year.

    At my current 17.3 MPG for every gallon ever pumped into the tank, that is 529 gallons of gas for one year.

    Bump that to 25 MPG and my gas consumption declines to 360 gallons per year.

    Net savings 169 gallons of gas.

    NOW.....New truck 65k...let us say $25k out the door w/trade of my current truck.

    Sales tax alone is $1700. If gas is 5 dollars a gallon, it would take me 2 years of driving to just recover the sales tax. And I am not including any future value factors here or the opportunity cost had I just invested that $25k. And then there are those pesky document fees, the few MODs I would want to to do to the truck that add little or no value...such as protective film, bed cover, bed mat, a little of of this and that...easily adds up to another $2k. So another 2+ years of driving to get that back in gas savings.

    And now let us talk about insurance. I am pretty confident a 2022 will cost more to insure than a Gen 2.5. More aluminum, more composites means more damage in a crash..higher premiums. No idea how many years to recover this.

    And then there is depreciation. Yeah right now most are giddy thinking their trucks appreciate in value. That will change eventually and depreciation will likely return to historic levels.

    Yeah I get that the price is gas is very emotional. Makes us angry. Makes us irrational. Makes us wait in line for 25 minutes to save 7 cents a gallon. It is burned into our brains every time we see the digital prices displayed above each gas station. Up another nickel and we start to question our very future.

    But for me, no math..old school math or new school math...can support me upgrading to a 25 MPG vehicle for the sole purpose of saving money on gas...bottom line is there may not be any overall savings at all.
     
    Metro14536, C.I., GODZILLA and 11 others like this.
  6. Oct 28, 2021 at 7:35 AM
    #6
    kingspeedy1

    kingspeedy1 [OP] New Member

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  7. Oct 28, 2021 at 7:40 AM
    #7
    sd172

    sd172 New Member

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    The 2022 has a new engine for the truck application. I wouldn’t bet on it not having issues with oil consumption and the turbochargers at least initially. I know many people will tow with it or drive it in the interstate and not let it cool down afterwards. Plus extended oil change intervals..
    So if you want to own a truck for 5 years and save fuel - that’s your choice. If you want something that can last for a long time - grab a 21 while you still can.
     
    Metro14536, CMikeB and Katblackdiesel like this.
  8. Oct 28, 2021 at 7:41 AM
    #8
    kingspeedy1

    kingspeedy1 [OP] New Member

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    In your scenario your absolutely right its not worth it.
    My scenario was to buy a new 2021 or 2022
    In which all the BS extras apply ..and i had The Caviate that there will be a price increase between the new and old as their always is..
    Then holding out on the price anouncement is pis-sing me off..
    gas prices thats another matter as i am in the industry. Dont get me started on our Drama Teacher for a Prime minister and his Carbon tax on fuel .
    It cost less than $10 barrel Canadian for oil.
     
    sd172 likes this.
  9. Oct 28, 2021 at 7:47 AM
    #9
    sd172

    sd172 New Member

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    A turbocharged engine can be made relatively reliable, but that requires some extra care and doing many things not by the book. The manufacturer recommended service schedule will let you get through the warranty with no major issues, but what happens afterwards you will have to cover out of your own pocket.
     
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  10. Oct 28, 2021 at 7:50 AM
    #10
    MNFisherman

    MNFisherman New Member

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    No one is arguing its a cash positive move to upgrade your old paid off truck... The whole argument is new '21 vs. new '22. I agree with the original post that the '22 makes far more sense given the improved millage, upgraded features, and better capabilities.
     
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  11. Oct 28, 2021 at 8:07 AM
    #11
    kingspeedy1

    kingspeedy1 [OP] New Member

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    Side track to my own post.I wish pre/post lube pumps where a standard accessory Espesially on turbo charged engines
    Wouldnt even have to be mechanical.Could be a pressure acumulator or 2 (i pre start i shutoff for turbo)
    You could Get a little oil pressure up before we head to Starbucks . And get a little more oil flow through the turbo support bearings on engine shutdown..Having the engine fan run after the engine is off has little benefit to keeping the oil at the turbo bearing from coking up..I would like more details on the turbo construction and cooling Toyota talks about..As a former Marine diesel mechanic i love a Turbo spooling..but that was someone elses money then
     
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  12. Oct 28, 2021 at 8:08 AM
    #12
    nuclear

    nuclear New Member

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    Anyone could have told you that and avoided all that thinking you put into your post. It's almost always never a benefit to upgrade a vehicle solely for gas mileage unless you are talking about real extremes.
     
    Ahab likes this.
  13. Oct 28, 2021 at 8:14 AM
    #13
    AZBoatHauler

    AZBoatHauler SSEM#140/ASCM#3/2ndGenNaysayer/BAF140

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    Everyone in this thread must have missed that the 2022 hybrid got 16 MPG driving from Cali to T2S. Don’t stock Tundras now get that on the highway? Where are these “savings” coming from?
     
  14. Oct 28, 2021 at 8:18 AM
    #14
    sd172

    sd172 New Member

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    Lots if in town driving - hybrids are excellent.
    Lots of highway driving - diesels are the way to go, like the 3.0 duramax based solely on fuel efficiency.
     
  15. Oct 28, 2021 at 10:38 AM
    #15
    kingspeedy1

    kingspeedy1 [OP] New Member

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    i did miss that .was that run on youtube? Not that i am thinking Hybrid ,but you would think it would be better than that. I dont know the route ,is it high elevation? As 16Mpg isnt great
     
  16. Oct 28, 2021 at 10:46 AM
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    AZBoatHauler

    AZBoatHauler SSEM#140/ASCM#3/2ndGenNaysayer/BAF140

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  17. Oct 28, 2021 at 11:02 AM
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    Shamrock92

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    I don’t disagree with the math or logic here.

    But the opposition is gonna point out the savings in fuel are a GUARANTEE and the repairs are a POTENTIAL.

    Yes - you can also eliminate that potential cost with a warranty too - cost of around $1500-2k that will extend your to 8-10 years. Beyond that - you really can’t guarantee any engine will it potentially have issues.

    Personally - I’d rather the V8 - but I don’t drive much - so my fuel cost are low. If I put above typical mileage on a truck and had to have a full size truck - the 22 makes sense.

    Of course - I find few people who NEED a full size truck that drive that much and would argue those that do already are likely using Big 3 brands as they have been available with fuel efficient engines for at least 5 years - not driving Tundras and waiting. At best Toyota can hope to convert them - they are not worried about upselling current loyalist to the next model.
     
  18. Oct 28, 2021 at 11:21 AM
    #18
    eick

    eick New Member

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    If you’re going to be towing a lot how much gas do you really think you’re going to end up saving?

    Probably gonna see single digit gas mileage either way. Personally I never buy the first of anything when it comes to new model cars. I wait for the kinks to work out
     
  19. Oct 28, 2021 at 11:34 AM
    #19
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    You’re operating on an assumption that Toyota simply took the V35A-FTS and decided at the last minute to put into service as a truck engine. The Lexus LS500 was introduced in late 2017 as a 2018 model year vehicle, and we can assume that 4 years of on road use in customer hands plus how ever many years of testing prior to release also applied lessons to the new Tundra. Figure Toyota/Lexus started testing that mill 3-4 years in advance of the LS500, so test mules and engine dyno samples running by 2013. The engine is under square and the architecture screams truck application not car application. Toyota isn’t designing a one off engine for a heavy luxury car and then deciding later to use it for a truck. They planned to put it trucks from the start, look at the architecture of the engine.

    There’s nearly 8 years of testing and real world use on that engine, plus whatever additional time they spent testing it in test mules for the new Tundra.

    Stay on top of oil changes, use good quality oil, and good quality filters. Have some mechanical sympathy like you should for any vehicle. The 2022 will run for a long long time if you do.
     
  20. Oct 28, 2021 at 1:12 PM
    #20
    sd172

    sd172 New Member

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    I hope you are correct on this and Toyota is smarter than BMW, Mercedes and VAG in late 2000-s. Take a typical Lexus owner who doesn’t mind putting 91 octane into the vehicle and staying on top of oil changes. Now, many Tundra owners will shrug at the idea of running anything but the cheapest gas they can find. I will believe it when I see those trucks running reliably for a few years with no oil consumption issues.
    I would be the first in line to switch to a hybrid TRD Pro Sequoia if proven trouble-free.
     
  21. Oct 28, 2021 at 2:50 PM
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    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    If it makes you feel better Toyota is already ahead of their customers on the fuel quality issue. The Tundra gets a de-rated V35A-FTS, keep in mind the Land Cruiser 300 and Lexus LX600 both run the same engine; yet those magically make 409hp instead of 389hp like the Tundra.

    Now part of that missing 20hp up top may be just market differentiation to make the Lexus appear more luxurious with that extra power, and a recommendation for 91 Octane. It will probably run fine on 87 Octane and make power pretty similar to the Tundra, but the ECU can adjust for higher grade fuel. We will see if the Tundra spec engine tune will make more power on 91 Octane vs the 87 Octane its power ratings are based on.

    To their credit, Toyota knows a lot of their customers are tight asses who would scream bloody murder if required to buy 91 Octane for best performance… even if the math pencils out to actually save them money. They also understand that some of them will expect to be able to tow a 12,000lb trailer up a mountain in 90+F weather with 87 Octane bargain basement mystery blend fuel, with 8,000 miles on the current oil and filter that were the cheapest oil and filter available. We all know this is true, even though none of the esteemed members of this forum would be Fudd enough to do such stupid things.

    Knowing that they have a certain *ahem* 10% of owners who are not going to follow recommendations in the manual (which will also never be opened), they rate the Tundra on 87 Octane as mentioned above. So it’s safe to run on 87. They’re also seriously hedging their bets if the size of that gaping maw of a grill is any indication. The whole front of the new Tundra is a giant rolling heat exchanger, radiators for everything. If you know your customers will not observe reasonable oil change intervals, run cheap fuel, and still beat on the truck you make sure you can keep all of it as cool as possible. High heat levels promote knock, and break down oil over time so they’ve gone to lengths to manage heat as much as possible.

    Hopefully they’ve done enough.
     
  22. Oct 28, 2021 at 3:30 PM
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    GaryC

    GaryC New Member

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    The fallacy in this whole thread is the assumption that there will be increased repair costs because of the turbocharged engine. That assumption is without any basis other than conjecture. Having owned several turbocharged vehicles I don't believe there is any reason to expect more repair costs with the new engine, but time will tell.

    I'll agree, however, that fuel economy alone isn't an economic reason to trade vehicles. If you're trying to choose between a 21 and 22 though, it would sway me towards the new engine. If you're a 10-12K a year driver then it might not make much difference, but for someone like me who drives 40-45K a year fuel costs start to become a big consideration.
     
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  23. Oct 28, 2021 at 3:43 PM
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    sd172

    sd172 New Member

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    Pretty much any other car manufacturer had some issues after downsizing their engines. Take the BMW’s M50 and the N46 series. Toyota had so many opportunities to learn how to avoid those mistakes.
     
  24. Oct 28, 2021 at 3:50 PM
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    Coal Dragger

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    We will see if they learned from the mistakes of others.
     
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  25. Oct 28, 2021 at 3:52 PM
    #25
    sd172

    sd172 New Member

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    That’s the only relevant oil test to me - heat the oil up to 350-380 degrees C and observe it’s thermal stability. If you see something like this forming - those deposits will seal the piston rings and cause oil burning issues.
    77BE719E-7518-4B29-A526-89A5D7EC4DAF.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021
  26. Oct 28, 2021 at 4:05 PM
    #26
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    Along with that I want the cooling package of the engine in question to be capable of preventing the oil from reaching those kinds of temps if at all possible.
     
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  27. Oct 28, 2021 at 4:31 PM
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    sd172

    sd172 New Member

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    This is the temperature of the piston near piston rings. The coolant never touches that part, but cooler engines are less prone to have the oil sludge and ring deposit issues. I wonder if Toyota raised the operating temp of the V35A-FTS compared to 3UR-FE.

    PS. Pic is a diesel piston with lower operating temps. Just for illustration purposes.

    B926A799-DB51-4F37-BEBC-B7A3B3AE1A08.jpg
     
  28. Oct 28, 2021 at 5:14 PM
    #28
    Coal Dragger

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    Not sure if anyone knows permissible operating temps on the V35A-FTS vs 3UR-FE at this point in a truck/SUV application.

    We do know that the V35A-FTS in all applications, in addition to a lot of heat exchangers, is also using piston oil squirters to keep pistons cool and wrist pins lubricated.

    Another interesting bit of engineering is the exhaust manifold is integrated into the cylinder head with a water jacket around it. This is evidently to cool down exhaust gas temperatures before they enter the turbochargers. I would hope this results in significantly longer life for the turbochargers by managing heat exposure.
     
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  29. Oct 28, 2021 at 5:34 PM
    #29
    sd172

    sd172 New Member

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    My friends Audi S7 4.0 V8t had both turbochargers replaced at the end of the warranty period due to clogging of oil screens, so he didn’t have to foot the bill. It seems to be a common issue and a design flaw:
    https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a8...nt-pcv-valve-2013-a8l-4-0t-76k-miles-2982716/
    He still loves the vehicle and it is super fun to drive. There’s nothing he can really do at this point except to budget for the next repair.
     
  30. Oct 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM
    #30
    pnw_rcutv

    pnw_rcutv New Member

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    As mentioned before, it's almost comical the shear amount of fear and misinformation about forced induction. Put it this way, Toyota has MFG a few turbocharged engines that will go down as one of the single most reliable and tunable engines in history (cough cough 1JZ and 2JZ). Go look at Mitsubishi and the 4G63. BMW in the N55 or even B58 now. Point being, as somebody what has owned a wholesome amount of turbo engines (most of those listed earlier) I have never had a single issue that wasn't aftermarket or tuning related. I currently drive a 5.7 NA Hemi as my main tow vehicle and I will GLADLY take a 3.5 TT over that any day of the week. Superior powerband where needed and better mpg while doing it. Anything below 6L on any of these trucks they don't make that much torque, frankly GM's 6.2 reigns king here. Towing a 6,500lb camper up various PNW mountain passes I'm almost always ringing 4-5,000rpm, same with a 2G Tundra. Now take both a 3.0 Ecodiesel or the 3.0 Duramax previously mentioned and they happily turn 2,500rpm or less towing that same load with a turbo sustaining nearly 30psi up a mountain pass without hardly any power loss when you get up to 6-7,000ft. If you can have that type of towing performance without all the EPA, DEF, and reliability hinderance of a 1/2 ton diesel and get 80% of that mpg sign me up!

    I'm not sure what the craze is about a woefully archaic 5.7 that is underpowered, lacks decent torque, and gets horrid fuel economy. It sounds good and has good reliability (the 5.7 sound is hard to beat - I will miss mine). Unfortunately, I think the average person would give up 1/10 of that reliability for an engine that performs better in EVERY single metric. Not to mention if Toyota makes the new 10sp even half way decent that alone makes up for the snooze of a 6sp they have had for the last 2 decades. Sound alone would be my hesitation even the new TRD Pro sounds like a Dyson, seems Toyota made that exhaust overly tame. They should have taken a page out of the 3rd Gen Raptor book and made an active exhaust, especially with the rumored $80k forum price tag :eek2:.

    Back on topic - I made a similar spreadsheet both for unladen and towing MPG to calculate the differences and it's pretty alarming when you extrapolate that out to 5, 7, or even 10yrs. I actually did this for numerous trucks I'm looking at, including the new Raptor. I won't share those costs though...they are bit hard to swallow :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021

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