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Flex Fuel engine running E10 better than non Flex Fuel?

Discussion in '2.5 Gen Tundras (2014-2021)' started by Ray, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. Oct 17, 2018 at 6:33 AM
    #1
    Ray

    Ray [OP] New Member

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    Are flex fuel engines better than the non-flex engines?
    I bought my 2016 Tundra in Arkansas and took a trip to Oregon. While there, a 5K mile factory oil change was needed and the dealer refused to change the oil. I talked with a service manager and he even showed me that the oil needed to be changed every 10K miles. When I arrived back in Arkansas I was told by my dealer that an oil change was needed every 5K! Actually, when I looked that's what my owner's manual states but I deferred to the Oregon dealer while I was there. Woo boy! Armed with my receipts and concerned about my warranty I called Toyota Corp and was told that the difference in oil changes was due to the higher operating temperature of the flex fuel engines when using E85. Oregon is a different Toyota region and they don't offer non-flex fuel engines in that region (E85 is not offered there), and that dealership had not seen a flex fuel engine before mine. I don't use E85 so I was told there wouldn't be a problem with the warranty.
    I have learned that E85 burns hotter than E10 or non-ethanol gas. As a result, Toyota has designed extra cooling for their flex fuel engines thus, the 5K mile difference between oil changes. Incidentally, I was told by Toyota Corp that I could extend my oil changes to 10K if I'm not using E85. That's not written anywhere, of course.
    A flex fuel engine fueled by E10 or non ethanol gas will always run cooler than a non flex fuel engine thus my question: are flex fuel engines better engines than the non flex fuel engines? Another way of wording my question is: If a flex fuel engine is operated with E10 or non-ethanol gas only, will it last longer than the non-flex fuel engine?
     
  2. Oct 17, 2018 at 6:47 AM
    #2
    TacoWuzzaTurd

    TacoWuzzaTurd Loving my Tundra

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    I heard to avoid the flex fuel but cant recall the reasons why. I guess it won't matter for me and probably most people. How many folks actually keep their vehicles beyond 100k miles these days? I imagine the majority do not.

    I think most modern engines even from the least reputable manufacturers can make it to 100k for the most part without too much trouble.
     
  3. Oct 17, 2018 at 7:15 AM
    #3
    15whtrd

    15whtrd Mr. Blonde

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    I doubt it needs 5000 mile oil change is if you only use regular gas. It’s when you introduce the E 85 that the intervals need to be stepped up. It’s basically the same engine just with a few different parts to make it run on the flex fuel. Personally I wouldn’t want to bother running flex fuel at all and just treat it like a regular gas engine.
     
    SteyrM40A1 and Ray[OP] like this.
  4. Oct 17, 2018 at 7:20 AM
    #4
    ChrisTRDPro

    ChrisTRDPro New Member

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    If you run E85 "more than 50% of the time" the oil change interval is actually 2,500 according to the manual. OUCH!
    I have the flex fuel and only run 87 octane. I do my oil change at 7-8k and send in an oil sample to a lab to be tested at every oil change. I always have plenty of life left in the oil. I could easily step up to 10k without a problem.
    I guarantee that these oil change intervals are crafted extremely conservatively to get you into the dealer more to pay a stupid amount for an oil change, and so they can "recommend" extra services/parts you need.
     
    Ray[OP] likes this.
  5. Oct 17, 2018 at 7:24 AM
    #5
    Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Bigfoot Hunter, Sasquatch too, but not Yeti

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    Our engines go well beyond 100K. 100K is nothing. I try to use pure dino juice in my non flex. If I had a FFV I'd still try to run pure dino. Not a fan of any gas with an E in front.
     
  6. Oct 17, 2018 at 7:28 AM
    #6
    Ray

    Ray [OP] New Member

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    I do. In 2001 the 4.7L 8 cyl Toyota engine was designed to last 500K miles with proper maintenance. That was 17 years ago. I've driven two Sequoias (2001, 2006) for over 200K miles each and have never had a problem with either engine. For the record, these have been the lowest maintenance vehicles I've ever owned. I'm 65. I needed more towing capacity and power than the Sequoia offers so I bought my 2016 Tundra. I also have a 2017 Tacoma.

    I guess my question of the flex fuel engine being better than the non flex fuel engine is kind of irrelevant but still, I'm curious. The flex fuel engine is designed to operate at a higher temperature than a non flex fuel engine. E85 engines burning E85 fuel require oil changes twice as much as non-ethanol engines. So back to my my original post:

    A flex fuel engine fueled by E10 or non ethanol gas will always run cooler than a non flex fuel engine thus my question: are flex fuel engines better engines than the non flex fuel engines? Another way of wording my question is: If a flex fuel engine is operated with E10 or non-ethanol gas only, will it last longer than the non-flex fuel engine?
     
    1UPPER and Black Wolf like this.
  7. Oct 17, 2018 at 7:34 AM
    #7
    Ray

    Ray [OP] New Member

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    NewImprovedRon likes this.
  8. Oct 17, 2018 at 7:39 AM
    #8
    Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Bigfoot Hunter, Sasquatch too, but not Yeti

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    For what's worth I haven't seen any complaints or issues mentioned here at all with the FFV motor relating to your concerns. :thumbsup:
     
    NewImprovedRon likes this.
  9. Oct 17, 2018 at 8:27 AM
    #9
    rustynail11

    rustynail11 New Member

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    just avoid using E85 entirely and you can extend to 10K with no issues
     
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  10. Oct 17, 2018 at 8:52 AM
    #10
    Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Bigfoot Hunter, Sasquatch too, but not Yeti

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    You hit the rusty nail on the head! 10K better than 5K if you can avoid it.
     
  11. Oct 17, 2018 at 9:42 AM
    #11
    OBXTundra

    OBXTundra Member

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    I have a FFV 2010 5.7. I have heard the following, read the following on other forums, all informal. Confirmation from Toyota or actual engineering documents would help. But here's what I believe to be true.

    -Certain components of the engine internals, cams, followers, valves, bearings...Have been Nitride coated to increase life and reduce wear. This was done because ethanol is known to increase the acidity levels in the engine oil, in turn corroding/prematurely wearing parts. This is the reason for the short oil change intervals, ethanol contaminates and changes the properties of the oil. Don't use ethanol and don't worry about the short intervals.
    -More robust, dual stage, injectors. Also coated to extend life and prevent corrosion, since ethanol is a sponge for water.
    -More robust fuel pump.

    Your post is actually the 1st I've read about potential changes to engine cooling in order to mitigate heat generated by ethanol fuel. I hope someone else chimes in, but i don't believe that increased ethanol percentage or even E85 would increase engine heat if the vehicle was tuned for it.

    I believe a flex-fuel 5.7 is equivalent if not better engineered than a non-flex fuel engine. Don't run anything over E10 and the benefits will really pay off. I do believe the Flex-fuel engines have significant changes made to them in order to stand up to the abuse that ethanol takes on an engine. It would be great if someone had a source or actual statements from Toyota to prove this.
     
  12. Oct 17, 2018 at 10:51 AM
    #12
    Stumpjumper

    Stumpjumper New Member

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    My free oil changes are done. I am going to 10k intervals and doing it myself. I did 7500 and 10k on my Tacomas when using syn with no issues. Dealers are making a killing around here selling people oil changes every 5k. Mine tried to sell me 4 changes @ 5k for almost $300. I figure that I can double the miles from 20k to 40k for less. Now if they did 4 every 10k for the same price I might do it. Deale worded "up to 45,000 miles".
     
  13. Oct 17, 2018 at 1:49 PM
    #13
    TundraNoCo

    TundraNoCo New Member

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    By flex fuel, I believe they mean E85. So, that mixture is 15% unleaded gasoline and 85% ethanol. After seeing what it has done to my competition's fuel dispensers and underground storage tank and lines, I wouldn't put E85 in an enemies car. In my opinion, avoid E85 at all costs.
     
    TWJLee likes this.
  14. Oct 17, 2018 at 3:28 PM
    #14
    906UP

    906UP New Member

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    This is a internet myth, look up the parts and you'll find the engine internals are identical, bearings, camshafts, etc. The only difference is a fuel system that is capable of handling ethanol and some programming in the ECU.
     
  15. Oct 17, 2018 at 3:35 PM
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    Ray

    Ray [OP] New Member

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    I just read what I wrote and did a self head slap. I incorrectly wrote:
    "A flex fuel engine fueled by E10 or non ethanol gas will always run cooler than a non flex fuel engine ..."

    What I MEANT to write was:
    A flex fuel engine fueled by E85 will run hotter than a flex fuel engine or a non flex fuel engine operating with E10 or non ethanol gas. Actually, E85 burns hotter, so a flex fuel engine burning E85 will run hotter than a flex fuel engine burning E10 or non ethanol gas.

    I asked a Toyota representative in Fort Smith Arkansas Saturday about the flex fuel engines and was told they have additional cooling because the flex fuel engines run hotter with E85.

    OBXTundra - thanks for your information. I think you answered my question.

    I can't figure out how my fingers typed something different than what I wanted to say.
     
  16. Oct 17, 2018 at 4:33 PM
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    OBXTundra

    OBXTundra Member

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    I assume you've taken the time to cross reference all the parts already? Do you have facts to backup this statement?

    I'd like a response from Toyota or an actual document from toyota showing such.

    The OP is saying that he spoke with a Toyota rep and the engine are in fact different.
     
  17. Oct 17, 2018 at 5:49 PM
    #17
    TacoWuzzaTurd

    TacoWuzzaTurd Loving my Tundra

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    That's good but I think you are in the minority by a large margin!
     
    Ray[QUOTED][OP] likes this.
  18. Oct 17, 2018 at 6:44 PM
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    906UP

    906UP New Member

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    Yes I have, you don't have to take my word for it, please check for yourself. http://onlinetoyotaparts.com/2017-t....7_v_8-transmission_automatic_4-engine-parts/
     
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  19. Oct 17, 2018 at 6:50 PM
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    Stumpjumper

    Stumpjumper New Member

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    The service writer at the dealer where I did all my free oil changes agreed with me when I said that I thought the differences were just in the fuel system and nothing internal in the block. Ethanol attacks rubber components not made to handle it. This is why owners of older boat motors change out fuel lines. I have seen what it does to fuel lines that are not made to handle it. Insides of the lines start to flake.
     
    Ray[OP] likes this.
  20. Oct 17, 2018 at 7:41 PM
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    JTX Tundra

    JTX Tundra New Member

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    I have a FFV, but I can't justify putting E85 in it. Where I live the E85 is 11% cents cheaper per gallon, but from what I have read you take about a 25% mileage hit. Unless the E85 gets cheaper, not sure how it makes sense to fill up with it.
     
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  21. Oct 17, 2018 at 7:58 PM
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    ChrisTRDPro

    ChrisTRDPro New Member

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    If you have a forced induction engine tuned & ready for e85, you make a bunch more HP on it because it has such good knock resistance. My evo x made about 60 more HP and 45 ftlbs more torque just by switching. :burnrubber:
    Pointless on our tundras though
     
  22. Oct 17, 2018 at 10:03 PM
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    Nick T

    Nick T New Member

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    @Ray why do you say a ffv burning e85 will run hotter then on e10?
    Ethanol has less btu, lower flash point, burns at a slower longer rate then petrol.
    On ffv or vehicle designed for e85, it will run cooler. E85 only runs hotter in a vehicle not designed to use it as the fuel system will be unable to supply enough fuel, therefore it will run leaner. Lean = hot... not a problem with a ffv.

    To answer your question, yes the 3UR-FBE is better then the 3UR-FE. You get to spend more money on replacing alcohol sensors that go out way too often for 'Toyota' or at least get to have the sensor recalibrated, get to change your oil 'by the book' twice as often, spend more on fuel injectors or pumps if they ever go out. So to Toyota, it is better because they make you spend more $$$$$$
     
    Ray[OP] likes this.
  23. Oct 18, 2018 at 7:15 AM
    #23
    Ericsopa

    Ericsopa Old man and the sea

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    My thoughts, too. I don't think alcohol burns hotter at all.
     
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  24. Oct 18, 2018 at 4:41 PM
    #24
    Ray

    Ray [OP] New Member

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    Umm, well, I was told that by a Toyota Rep in Fort Smith Arkansas the other day. He told me that the Tundra flex fuel engines had additional cooling for the E85 fuel. I'll give him a call and ask for more clarification.
     
  25. Oct 29, 2018 at 2:48 PM
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    906UP

    906UP New Member

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    In case those of us in the FFV crowd are curious, when I did my 40K oil change I sent a sample to Blackstone Labs. I run Mobil 1 0W20 Synthetic, change at 10K miles, never run E85. Basically, the oil was still good, they recommended running it till 12K miles. I'll still stick w/ 10K changes.

    From the report,
    "NORM: It's fine that the truck wasn't driven prior to the sample. There is a little fuel present, which is
    probably a result of just warming the engine up, but this amount is not at all harmful. Nor is it enough to
    show a fuel system problem. Universal averages show typical wear levels for this type of engine after about
    6,700 miles on the oil. This was a much longer run, but the engine didn't seem to notice. Metals this low and
    balanced show no obvious mechanical problems. The TBN of 3.3 shows active additive left. Try 12,000
    miles on the next oil."
     
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