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Audio Upgrade Nightmare - Any Advice?

Discussion in 'Audio & Video' started by token2k6, Jul 2, 2019.

  1. Jul 2, 2019 at 1:51 PM
    #1
    token2k6

    token2k6 [OP] New Member

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    The week of Memorial Day, I decided to travel to a local car audio shop to get an under seat powered sub and speakers replaced. The salesman recommended instead of replacing 2 year old speakers on my 2017 CM non-JBL, to put in an Alpine Power Pack. The Alpine PWE-S8 sub sounded great; but audio from the speakers, not so much! It was really washed out and all sound coming from below chest level. Futzed with the settings for a week, took it back, the place tore every thing up, adding cross-overs, etc. It didn’t make any difference. “Need a $700 DSP for it to sound right”

    Shop #2 – Went in asking if they could fix the other shops mess. They immediately said the sub and power pack was crap and that I should replace the front speakers. Sold me Hertz Mille 165.3 and got them installed. It only sounded mildly better. Went back the next day, they were adamant about needing a processor, so sold me an AudioControl LC61. Lost fader, sub started popping. They pulled the Power Pack out and put in a little Alpine MRV-F300 amp, ran dedicated amp wire from battery to amp and powered sub; sounded better, but not right. Realized after that the LC6i was completely wired wrong. Also learned my cell phone calls would only come thru the center dash speaker, sub still popped, and they left my hood unlatched, which I noticed when I was hitting 60mph on the highway!

    Shop #3 – Asked if they could fix two shops mess. Immediately sold me some Alpine S-Series rear door speakers and $100 to dial everything in. Confirmed multiple times it was wired correctly. Sounded better, but not great. Went back a week later b/c the bass was all off, they decided to hook up the sub with RCAs to the LC6i. Turns out, they used the LC6i to sum the front and rear channels which was causing all kinds of level issues.

    Shop #4 – CarToys – getting somewhere now after a recommendation from Houston Tundras FB group. I am so happy they took pity on me and were willing to do labor only without having to buy anything (nothing really left to buy!) They ripped out stock amp under the seat and proceeded to re-wire everything correctly with the LC6i and getting me full range back to all my speakers. It sounds so much better, but I am not sure how I like the sub being hooked up with RCA’s, it sounds really low and ‘wobbly’. I think I preferred the sub hooked up with speaker wire.

    So, now I am in $1500 for parts I could have got for half the price and $800 in various labor. This is what I get for rushing into something! It’s been 20 years since I’ve messed with an audio upgrade in a vehicle and kind of wish I didn’t. The sound is OK, kind of ‘tinty’ and every XM station sounds different, like I am continuously futzing with the treble, mid, bass. I have the LC6i pretty much dialed in with the 2 channels almost maxed on volume and channel 3 for the sub halfway (b/c it makes the door speakers put out too much bass) At this point, I am starting to save for what will be another $1k to change out the head unit (Kenwood, Maestro, etc) not to mention the labor to undo the current speaker wire setup under the seat.

    Anybody have any advice? Just shut up and live with it..? Definitely replace the head unit? I am also wondering if I should have CarToys look at the door speaker installations. Not one shop used an ‘adapter’ or ‘harness’ for anything, when that seems like something you need for these Tundra’s. Anyways, thanks for letting me rant! -Nick
     
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  2. Jul 2, 2019 at 2:00 PM
    #2
    Rubberdown

    Rubberdown Spilling my guts here.

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    Where about a Houston are ya Nick? I can get with ya and take a looksie at it and we can figure it out, or I can at least point you in the right direction.

    I ran the install bay at several car stereo companies, just bought a new to me 1794 and am contemplating what to put in it so helping you would help me figure out what I’d like to do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  3. Jul 2, 2019 at 2:02 PM
    #3
    Black@Blue19

    Black@Blue19 Old Salt

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    WOW!! man I feel for you!!! Someone asked me about if I was going to do anything with my system and I told him”nope it’s been forty years since I’ve messed with anything like that and I am just to dang scared to have someone mess with it”!!! I am going to leave everything just like it is!!! It seems like you just can’t trust some folks these days!!!
     
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  4. Jul 2, 2019 at 2:53 PM
    #4
    token2k6

    token2k6 [OP] New Member

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    I live in Sugar Land but work outside of downtown. I am down for any help whatsoever and can drive out! And yes, this would be a good thing in helping you figure out how to start backwards. LOL

    Yeah, it's crazy! I am not a car guy at all (in IT) so I trusted these shops with my vehicle. Imagine wanting to sell or 'part out' your awesome Tundra just b/c the stereo is messed up. I didn't sleep for weeks and lost 10 lbs! Very agonizing. At least its back on the right track..maybe I need to stop chasing the getting it back to 'stock' sound since it is completely different components now...
     
  5. Jul 2, 2019 at 3:49 PM
    #5
    realtorblake

    realtorblake Tundra Thunda

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    Redneckistan... aka Cypress, TX
    2019 Crewmax Platinum 5" Zone lift Fox 2.5 /OME suspension 12.5x35x18 ProComp's
    You might try AllOut Offroad in Stafford. They have an off site guy that does all their audio work and he is supposed to be really good. Chance, the guy that owns AllOut actually won the custom audio division at SEMA when he was just getting started. Sounds like a nightmare to have to get so much shoddy work corrected.
     
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  6. Jul 2, 2019 at 4:06 PM
    #6
    djhase

    djhase New Member

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    RCA's are the correct way to hook an amp to your head unit. They are "low outputs" and the speaker wires are "high outputs" The low outputs are not amplified by the stereo and allow the amp to do all the amplifying giving you a better sound with low noise. If it sounds low an wobbly then the amp needs to be adjusted. There are usually a bunch of adjustments on an amp to get them tuned right. Most you don't need to mess with. The one to turn it up is usually called the gain. That is what is probably why your sounds low (I am assuming low volume and not low tone).
     
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  7. Jul 2, 2019 at 4:07 PM
    #7
    Rubberdown

    Rubberdown Spilling my guts here.

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    Our office is in Stafford right at 59/90. I’ll shoot you a PM and give ya my info.
     
  8. Jul 2, 2019 at 4:31 PM
    #8
    token2k6

    token2k6 [OP] New Member

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    Yup, as I understand the stock HU doesn't have RCA's...I think what is happening is the main speaker wires are running to the LC6i, then speaker wires going out of the amp. There are 2 RCA cables going from Channel 1&2 from LC6i to the amp and Channel 3 RCA's to the sub. I cannot see the dials on the amp, but I'm sure its fine. I have minimal hiss, so I think its either set at NOM or a click below that. I have the LPF on the powered sub 3/4 turned and the gain a little above a 1/4. It hits, but what I noticed with that Channel 3, if I keep the bass any where higher than flat, it just reverberates the whole time, mainly the door speakers. At first, the sub was hooked up speaker wire from back of head unit, gave it more definition and kick. Don't get me wrong, current set up sounds great for rap & hip/hop, but any alternative / rock / EDM, all the bass is just a 'blur'. And please forgive my audio describing terms!
     
  9. Jul 3, 2019 at 12:58 PM
    #9
    Rubberdown

    Rubberdown Spilling my guts here.

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    Ok fellas. He stopped by and we took a look at it. What he has is front left and right speaker level inputs going into channels 1&2 of the LC6i. Rear left and right speaker level inputs going to 3&4 of the LC6i. Each of these are being converted to a low level output, each being fed to a 4 channel alpine amp powering his components sets. Then outputs 5&6 are the sum of front and rear signals, going out low level to a little alpine 8 inch powered sub. We found a few odd things in wiring, and his crossover settings were a little funky but we fixed that. I put him in touch with a fella that runs a local shop here that I trust, and hopefully he can get his installation issues resolved correctly. I think his real issue is going to be with the powered sub, it’s just not going to perform in a big way. As soon as you push it hard it’s struggling. And using the stock head unit there isn’t any real separate way to properly modify the eq with out it affecting everything else. This has convinced me to go ahead and look at a headunit and maestro piece when I do my install. Which of course ain’t cheap at all.
     
  10. Jul 3, 2019 at 1:31 PM
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    djhase

    djhase New Member

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    I would just get a head unit that has low outs and all the features you want instead of messing with these things like the LC6i that convert factory high outs to low. The only reason I would consider one is if the factory head unit did things or was integrated in the car to the point an aftermarket is unfeasible or unavailable. There are many aftermarket head unit options for the Tundra that are just slip in no modification necessary. Then you can put a amp on it connected to the RCA's then run speakers from the amp. I would use a separate amp for a sub. Most aftermarket head units are set up for multiple amps and subs all controlled by the head unit.

    Crutchfield is a great resource. I buy all my equipment from them and do the installation myself. They provide great instructions that tell you how to dismantle your vehicle and install the components. They also have wiring kits so it connects right up to factory wiring usually plug and play. If you get stuck they can help with a phone call. I find that those "audio shops" usually have some kid doing the installs that knows less than I do and cares a lot less about my truck. Sounds like the OP got to deal with a few of these geniuses.
     
  11. Jul 3, 2019 at 3:16 PM
    #11
    Pudge

    Pudge Super Secret Elite Member #7

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    So right now what is in your truck? Stock head unit...lc6i....300watt alpine 4 channel amp? Components in the doors right? Stock dash speakers? What sub and box, I dont think you mentioned brand or manufacturer of box? Still a powered self contained under seat sub?

    I have a jl 300/4 amp running all my door speakers and my sub. And when wired right it works great. I went with a kenwood headunit and maestro rr too. And from what I can tell the head unit made the biggest difference, even a cheap one will likely fix the problem
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
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  12. Jul 3, 2019 at 3:21 PM
    #12
    Porkchop Express

    Porkchop Express Its all in the reflexes

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    replace the head unit.
     
  13. Jul 3, 2019 at 3:31 PM
    #13
    Toyotoholic

    Toyotoholic -4Life-

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    Finally the simple truth!


    Your problems start with the headunit.... You can't can't fix stupid, and the OEM HU is absolutely junk!
     
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  14. Jul 3, 2019 at 3:35 PM
    #14
    Porkchop Express

    Porkchop Express Its all in the reflexes

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    yup.
    its my next mod. the OEM unit is pretty crappy and lacks so many features that aftermarket units for 200-300$ have standard.
    All your line level issues are from the number of components you are using. There is a lot of loss there, which will translate into horrible sound, voltage imbalances, and overall shittiness .
    Start with the source . the rest of your gear is fine.
     
  15. Jul 3, 2019 at 4:07 PM
    #15
    Rubberdown

    Rubberdown Spilling my guts here.

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    I’m In the same boat as he is to an extent. Head units are expensive for a nice one with the maestro thing. A cheap one looses all the nice features. I don’t mind spending the money, but all of my money is going to go to fab work. It makes it hard to swallow another grand for a headunit.
     
    token2k6[OP] likes this.
  16. Jul 3, 2019 at 5:22 PM
    #16
    token2k6

    token2k6 [OP] New Member

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    Thanks everyone! Especially @Rubberdown!! Really appreciate the meetup, that crossover setting down to 2db made a world of difference, it doesn't feel like my ears are bleeding after an hour's drive now. :)

    I am going to try this recommended shop for one final round of troubleshooting and fixing, then gotta live with this for a bit to save up for the head unit. I know it will fix all the sound issues, every input, every XM station...all sound different. I really believe a new HU will clean that up.

    I really wanted to post this for others in the same boat as me and not make the same mistakes. I should have just had the powered sub put in for $500 and called it a day. What sucks, is the multitude of videos I watched in a months time, I realize I could have done all this myself!! Oh well, I know better for my next Tundra!

    The complete list of gear, non-JBL with stock amp removed:
    Sub: powered Alpine PWE-S8 w/remote
    Front: Hertz Mille 165.3
    Rear: Alpine 6.5" S Series
    Amp: 4-channel Alpine MRV-F300
    Proc: AudioControl LC6i w/ remote

    edit: the 2 places to avoid in Houston, Texas (they may do great work on other vehicles, but they did not know their away around a Tundra) These shops had the most reviews, rated 3.9-4.3 and were close to my work.
    River Oaks Car Stereo
    Houston Car Stereo
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  17. Jul 5, 2019 at 5:35 AM
    #17
    NoRcptn

    NoRcptn Better than mediocre poster

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    Not trying to bum you out , but every input and every xm will sound different. FM vs. Bluetooth vs. USB vs Pandora VS iTunes have drastically different quality depending on output settings and recordings.

    XM/Sirius has terrible sounding stations and many of them are streamed pretty low quality. There is a significant variation between any music channel and any sports channel , let alone a top 100 hits channel and a less popular 60's music channel.
     
  18. Jul 5, 2019 at 8:07 AM
    #18
    token2k6

    token2k6 [OP] New Member

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    Ok, just got back from Sound Evolution and from talking to the installer based on @Rubberdown's recommendation. (Thanks again!) He sat in my car for a good 10 mins and played all these test tracks. I am suffering from 'hollow' sound and a 'hot' left side. He did not seem too interested in working what I have, saying a re-wire for the 4th time would be spinning wheels; while I could gain something, I could lose something else. So, I have one of two options:

    1) He was very adamant that the HU can stay. Suggesting a DSP, which is supposedly the 'head unit of the future'. He said the best at a budget would be an Alpine PXE-0850S 12-Channel for $600. He would then fix every speaker that was hooked up wrong, $100 to put rubber and foam on the door speakers, a 3 hour morning tune - $1150

    2) Replace the head unit. $1k for HU and Maestro, other parts, $150 to install, $150 to fix all speakers wires, minimal tune - Around $1500

    Decision time, b/c now that he pointed all the inconsistencies with sound, I really notice it now and am back on edge! FML!!
     
  19. Jul 5, 2019 at 1:30 PM
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    Rubberdown

    Rubberdown Spilling my guts here.

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    Can you what dsp was he suggesting you go with? Is he saying use that in conjunction with your lc6i or to replace it?
     
  20. Jul 5, 2019 at 1:33 PM
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    token2k6

    token2k6 [OP] New Member

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    Alpine PXE-0850S 12-Channel and yeah the LC6i would get tossed. Also mentioned the DSP could stay if I got a new HU down the line..
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  21. Jul 5, 2019 at 8:35 PM
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    Toyotoholic

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    A new headunit like the Halo 309 has a dsp processor built in. If your replace the OEM junk, you will not need the $600 12 chd dsp. Simpler is always better here. The think of this:. The OEM HU tuned to a xm station that has streamed a compressed signal to the truck. It gets expanded by a $20 little box receiver and turned into playable input signal. The HU then breaks that back down to separate channels, EQ those channels, and process the shit of it based on algorithms some computer in your truck thinks should sound accurate. Then this horribly over-proccessed signal gets amplified by the worst possible cheapest, and synthetic sounding junk available. (I'm speaking of the JBL system).

    So after all that garbage you arrive at your new system's starting point.

    Now you use the speaker level inputs to your new 12 channel dsp. and start the whole process in reverse. Take the 12 OEM channels (JBL) and apply another fancy algorithm to start combing all of the mess the OEM has made. Once all the processing is complete, the dsp will have summed all of the OEM information into 2 channels.
    Then it starts it's own new algorithms to again process the 2channel signal back into 12 channels of super-hyper-tweakable overcooked music. Then you get to amplify ALL OF THAT processing to you new speakers...

    OR

    NEW HEADUNIT

    All onboard adjustments made at a pre-amp level in a CLEAN, PURE, and most of all SIMPLE high quality audio path all the way from the very start. Run shielded RCA's to your amps. Check all you wiring, and start enjoying.
     
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  22. Jul 5, 2019 at 8:47 PM
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    gdisarray

    gdisarray Short term member

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    @token2k6

    TLDR all of it.

    About the wobbly sub....

    Why do you have an amp pushing into a powered sub? That is how I read it above. And you say that you have rca's running to the subwoofer instead of speaker wire? If sub is powered and is fed by rca, then that input should be 'line' level. If it is coming from an amp you are pushing speaker level to the internal sub amp. And the idiots at one of the shops shouldn't have used rca for speaker level.

    Something's weird. Would explain popping, etc.

     
  23. Jul 5, 2019 at 9:03 PM
    #23
    DCB500

    DCB500 New Member

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    I went through the same thing. I got all new speakers and a DSP (LC7i) and installed with the factory head unit. Sounded good sometimes and not other times but the sound quality seemed very inconsistent to me. The 4 channel amp was already wired up to the factory wiring so I took out the head unit and replaced with a Kenwood DMX 905s with RCA’s run directly to the amp. Also have the kicker hideaway sub and the door speakers are all focal. With the original install I had the amp and DSP installed by a shop (wish I had known about the amp wiring adapters before I had him do it because he cut my harness - live and learn) Bottom line the sound quality, music separation, and dynamic range are all MUCH better with the Kenwood. The installer originally suggested that I use the amp crossover settings but I recently switched the amp to full range and am now using the crossovers in the head unit and I have improved the sound a bit more after messing with it for a couple hours. The hideaway prides descent bass but I may build a box, get a sub amp, and install actual subs at some point down the road. Just have figure out a good configuration for a box under the back seat of a double cab. I used to put stereos in all my vehicles way back in the day....a lot has changed with new factory systems from what I remember, had to do a ton of research and I’m still learning!
     
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  24. Jul 5, 2019 at 10:55 PM
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    TruckyTruck

    TruckyTruck Dumbest Username

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    I tried everything I could to keep my factory head unit. Everything was perfect except there was white noise. It stayed a constant low volume no mater how loud my music was turned up. I just couldn't live with it. The factory head units just put out dirty signal.
     
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  25. Jul 6, 2019 at 3:33 AM
    #25
    rawn027

    rawn027 New Member

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    If you don't have JBL, the factory units put out a speaker-level signal. You then have to convert that to line-level, which in turn will create that noise. The key take away here, IMHO, is that if you want to upgrade your audio system, start with the source. It is by far the most important part of any system. Speakers being the next most important (it just so happens with car stereos that if you want better speakers it also requires amplification). Amplification being last.

    DSP wont fix a bad source, ever.

    Sorry about all the trouble you went through. This is another scenario I struggle with because on one hand I don't do car stereo installs daily, on the other hand I would really take car of my truck during the install. I can't say the same for an installer. I also don't want to try and be sold a bunch of crap I don't need.
     
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  26. Jul 6, 2019 at 6:26 AM
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    token2k6

    token2k6 [OP] New Member

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    What I meant here is that at first, for the powered sub, they used a cable the size of an AUX plugged into a little nub under drivers side kick panel. Then I guess under the passenger seat they were using factory amp power for the Alpine Power Pack. The 2nd shop said that was 'crap' and ran 2 dedicated amp wires to the battery, one for the sub and one for under the seat. The popping occurred at the first 2 shops. The 3rd shop got it to stop by running a line to the ignition. The 4th shop, Car-Toys, properly used the GTO on the LC6i to eliminate it. I was trying to explain that when the sub was hooked from speaker wire behind the HU, it sounded a lot better than it now being on Channel 3 of that LC6i. It was nice and kicky/punchy before, now only puts out lower bass cues.

    And I can't thank every one enough for responding over night. I refreshed this page a dozen times yesterday! I think the clear cut winner is going to be getting a Kenwood DMX906S - top of the line mechless, with DSP inside. So excited for Android Auto!! When I was looking at all the stuff available for that Alpine DSP, 90% of it was over my head. I don't have time for that. It may be set and forget, but I really doubt it. I don't like the idea of 2 volume controls, that will surely piss off the wife. Plus, if I get the HU, nothing from stopping me adding the DSP down the line if I am still not happy. Hopefully I am!

    Now, it seems like a no-brainer to buy all the HU stuff and do it myself. I've seen taking this truck apart enough times. What I fear is the mess under the driver's seat and removing the LC6i and using only the Alpine amp. Have no idea if I'll need to put the factory amp back in. For that reason, I am still thinking of using the installer, that way I can still get my speaker installation issues fixed. I may post some pictures up if I can get some good shots. It's not a rats nest, so maybe I can get some insight if it's something I can attempt.
     
  27. Jul 6, 2019 at 7:04 AM
    #27
    birdman076

    birdman076 Bird, bird, bird...bird is the word

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    Airbox with K&N Filter, 2" lift on 33's, Alpine iLX-F309 head unit, Pull out bed tool boxes, brown with black trim, rims, etc, black leather interior, matching topper. Muffler delete (too loud..) 62k miles!!!
    With an aftermarket HU you don't need to run the factory amp (it would over complicate things needing more adapter harnesses, etc). Just run RCA Cables out of the new HU and to the prospective amps.

    One quick note before you go that route. I have the LC7i and have it working flawlessly with my factory HU. The biggest issue/complaints i've seen on the forum and others (white noise, hiss, lack of tuneability, etc) all circle back to the LC7i, LC6i not being setup correctly from the get go. I too suffered from hiss and lack of tuneability and finally stumbled on a video how to from AudioControl on how to properly set the LC7i. Once done its been a set it and forget it process.

    Not trying to poo poo or piss anyone off but before I got drop hundreds of my hard earned dollars I'll exhaust every option and then some. The factory HU does have its limitations that is for sure but getting good quality sound out of is is not one of them. The only thing I would highly recommend is a remote bass adjust knob which I bought another amp to have that functionality which I am overly impressed with.

    Power Acoustik RZ1-2300D 2300W Class D Monoblock Amplifier Bass Amp powering a 12" kicker comp shallow sub. Can't believe how small in size it is and how much power it puts out. I have the bass knob set on 2.5-3 at most and that rattles the rear view mirror...Yes is a "cheapo" amp, but it does more than I need which makes me very happy that i don't need to drop $300 on something I can spend $92 to get done.


     
  28. Jul 6, 2019 at 8:12 AM
    #28
    TruckyTruck

    TruckyTruck Dumbest Username

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    You would literally be the first guy to use the lc7i that I know of to get that white noise to go away. I had the same thing installed. They make quality stuff, unfortunately Toyota didn't in the case of the HU.

    I believe you, but somehow I feel like you got lucky with your head unit.
     
  29. Jul 6, 2019 at 8:34 AM
    #29
    Danman34

    Danman34 New Member

    Joined:
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    I’m using an LC7i with factory H/U and I have zero white noise.
     
    smslavin likes this.
  30. Jul 6, 2019 at 9:24 AM
    #30
    TruckyTruck

    TruckyTruck Dumbest Username

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    Well I'll be ....

    I've been told this before only to have the guy post later that he realized he did have that noise. Mine was very faint. But it was there. Talk about driving me crazy.
     

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