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Question for LEO

Discussion in 'Public Safety Officers' started by War Machine, May 7, 2018.

  1. May 7, 2018 at 4:44 AM
    #1
    War Machine

    War Machine [OP] SSEM # 5 3MW

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    So, I’m curious about something. On weekends near where I live, there are churches that use off duty police to stop traffic and let people out of their parking lots. What is the legality of this?
    On one hand, I can see it being helpfully for public safety. One of these churches especially is on a dangerous portion of road, so it’s difficult and dangerous trying to get out in that area even from the gas stations and other businesses there. At others, there’s plenty of room and time to get out anyway, yet they still do this.
    On the other, it seems like the churches are paying government officials to give them priority when entering the roadway. I’ve been the only vehicle traveling on the road, and been stopped there to let half a dozen cars out of a parking lot, when it would have just been easier on all of us just to let me go by. It didn’t seem necessary at all.
    If I were to just safely drive around an off duty officer instead of stopping, am I breaking the law? I’ve seen people do it, and at most the officer just yells at them. Not saying I’m going to ignore and officer and keep going, but what is my legal obligation there? I’m not trying to complain or start trouble, I’m just curious about it. Are there rules in place, or could anybody just hire police to stop traffic wherever they want? For example, it’s tough to get out of the parking lot at my work in the evenings. Could we just hire officers to stop people and let us out?

    On a side note, it’s not always actually LEO. I’ve seen private security companies doing the same thing. Basically like the companies Walmart hires to patrol their parking lots. Do these guys have the same authority to stop traffic?

    We’ve hired off duty officers to be in place during company events, just to make sure things stay cool. That’s completely on our property though, and doesn’t interfere with the public roadway. I guess I’m just curious where the line is.
     
  2. May 7, 2018 at 4:57 AM
    #2
    Professional Hand Model

    Professional Hand Model A.K.A ‘Golden Hands’

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    LEO is a sworn in officer at all times 24/7 365. Disobey and you are breaking the law regardless if hired by private party. ‘Non-LEO Security’ for malls/etc have the ability to arrest. These laws maybe different in your state.

    Suggestion for your work place: Start a trend and be the first to play traffic cop. Designate a new TC every week until the real cops shut you down.
     
  3. May 7, 2018 at 5:14 AM
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    War Machine

    War Machine [OP] SSEM # 5 3MW

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    Just to be clear: I’m just curious as to exactly what the rules and limitations are in this situation. I’ve seen people disregard the officers with no apparent consequences.

    What about jurisdiction? For example, I was in the same area one afternoon. (This is one that did piss me off). A line of school buses from another district were at a red light. I assume it was a football team, band, etc. in town to play at the local school. A police car marked from the school district pulled around everyone, blocked the intersection, and let all of that school’s buses go through before moving out of the way. It was an ISD police officer, not county, state, or anything like that. He worked for that school district, which was probably 60 miles away. I can’t imagine he had authority to do that, especially just for convenience sake, not safety. It was a four way intersection with traffic lights, so traffic was already being controlled. He just did it to get them all through ahead of everyone else. (It may have been the fact that it was our rival school from when I played football that pissed me off so much.)
     
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  4. May 7, 2018 at 5:17 AM
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    rustynail11

    rustynail11 New Member

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    Not sure of the legality but see it all the time in my area. They even have off duty officers at nearby traffic lights controlling the timing of the light. I always thought it was the church paying officers that are off duty to provide this service.
     
  5. May 7, 2018 at 5:19 AM
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    T-Rex266

    T-Rex266 Elon approved Staff Member

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    It’s a lawful order being given to motorist. Is the off-duty going to get into a vehicle equipped with emergency lights? (Presuming they didn’t drive their perszonal) highly doubtful.
     
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  6. May 7, 2018 at 5:35 AM
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    War Machine

    War Machine [OP] SSEM # 5 3MW

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    At what point is it not lawful though? Do jurisdictions matter, as in my example about the school buses? That’s what I’m wondering. Things like that come across as overstepping authority from my point of view, but I don’t have actual knowledge of the laws in question. It just seems odd that a school district officer from two counties over can block an intersection so all his buses go through at the same time.
    I asked one of the local school district officers a while back what jurisdiction he had, and he said it only extended throughout the area covered by his district. ie, he could write a speeding ticket anywhere covered by his district.
     
  7. May 7, 2018 at 5:43 AM
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    BTBAKER

    BTBAKER DIFFERENT NAME. SAME JUNK.

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    You’re breaking the law going around them IMO. The city/County has to give permission to allow that traffic control. I’m basing this on bigger roads, not Walmart parking lots.

    As for your workplace. You could solicit traffic engineering in your city to do a study and maybe get a light or something in place.
     
  8. May 7, 2018 at 5:44 AM
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    T-Rex266

    T-Rex266 Elon approved Staff Member

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    I may be incorrect, but there isn’t a jurisdiction on that. He/she is still sworn, carries a badge, and is acting under the law.
     
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  9. May 7, 2018 at 5:45 AM
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    BTBAKER

    BTBAKER DIFFERENT NAME. SAME JUNK.

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    Yea, that seems to be overstepping boundaries. But, you could also get out and stop traffic at the next Tundra get together in your area and 99 percent of people will stop.
     
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  10. May 7, 2018 at 5:47 AM
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    War Machine

    War Machine [OP] SSEM # 5 3MW

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    Nah, it’s not that big of a deal. We’re just right across the street from a big high school, so it’s tough to get in and out at certain times. We’re actually at the corner of a four way intersection also. It really just depends on someone letting us out.
     
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  11. May 7, 2018 at 5:53 AM
    #11
    War Machine

    War Machine [OP] SSEM # 5 3MW

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    I do want to reiterate that I’m not looking to ignore officers, or complaining about the practice. I’m just looking for general knowledge about something I’m curious about. I’m not anti-law enforcement in any way.
    This wasn’t covered in any of the many defensive driving courses I’ve taken....
     
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  12. May 7, 2018 at 6:08 AM
    #12
    JimBeam

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    Jurisdiction is a funny thing, as there may be agreements in place for agencies who routinely have to go into other areas such as the case with the school districts

    Many school districts also may actually have state credentials and therefore state jurisdiction



    As for the other stuff, most anywhere that’s a legitimate business, function, group, etc, can hire an off duty officer for either security or traffic control for an event...I’ve done it many times and it’s completely within the law here in SC

    A law enforcement officer providing traffic control must be obeyed by law here also
     
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  13. May 7, 2018 at 7:48 AM
    #13
    BayRunner

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    It's a public service and safety issue. I'm sure it may differ depending on area, but in the county I live in, it's works the same for local festivals held by private groups, private construction areas working close to the road, etc. Personally knowing the local Sheriff, I know he goes out of his way for his agency to interact and be part of the community.
     
  14. May 7, 2018 at 8:11 AM
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    TXMiamiFan

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    ^^^ This.

    It's a legal command, so you have to stop or you are failing to obey a peace officer. Do some people ignore and drive around with no repercussions? YES! Happens to me all the time; issue is you cannot leave to give him/her a tix because then they are leaving their post/duty. If there are more LEOs around, they can call on the radio and give description/license plate and another LEO will handle. Have done this too.

    Making you stop to clear the church, when you are the only car on the road is kinda crappy. I would stop church traffic and let you go (cause you drive a Tundra); but it's still officer discretion. We also do traffic control outside of our county and still binding.

    Private security I have no idea . . .
     
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  15. May 7, 2018 at 8:20 AM
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    Black Wolf

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    Surprised you didn't state>>>>"I would stop church traffic and let you go(if you drive a "WHITE" Tundra)" You are slipping.....
     
  16. May 7, 2018 at 8:26 AM
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    TXMiamiFan

    TXMiamiFan SSEM #3 and tractor extraordinaire

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    I don't see colors nor brand. It's 2018. All PC, brother!

    [​IMG]

    I have been "woke".
     
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  17. May 7, 2018 at 8:32 AM
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    Black Wolf

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    upload_2018-5-7_9-32-22.jpg
     
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  18. May 7, 2018 at 8:37 AM
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    BuckWallace

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    I've wondered the same out of curiosity, but I just assumed it was legal since they're wearing official orange reflector vests and have stop signs. Also, I don't mind waiting 10-20 seconds for people to safely cross the busy street, so it's never really bothered me.
     
  19. May 7, 2018 at 8:48 AM
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    gdiep

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    It's a very interesting discussion about whether Police Officers "are the law" or whether they "uphold the law". If they are the law, then disobeying them is clearly breaking the law. If they uphold the law, then the question is whether you are violating a traffic law by going around.

    I don't believe that Officers "are the law". I mean no disrespect. I have family in law enforcement. I just believe that we all decide on what the laws are, Officers have a duty to uphold the law, and we citizens have a duty to abide by the law. I would never go around traffic like the situation that was originally posted. But I don't think that not complying with instructions from law enforcement is automatically "breaking the law".
     
  20. May 7, 2018 at 8:59 AM
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    TXMiamiFan

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    "Traffic Regulation 11. Obedience to police officers. Willfully failing or refusing to comply with any lawful order or direction of any police officer with the authority to direct, control, or regulate traffic is a class 2 misdemeanor traffic offense. 42-4-107"
     
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  21. May 7, 2018 at 10:32 AM
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    gdiep

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    Again, no disrespect to LEO's and I would always follow their directing of traffic, but I think the original post was about whether or not they have the "authority to direct, control or regulate traffic" when they are hired to direct traffic at a church. I think the Traffic Regulation 11 is meant to address direction of traffic in a public safety setting where they are doing their jobs as police officers. When they are off duty and hired by a non-governmental entity to direct traffic, are they still functioning as "police officers"?
     
  22. May 7, 2018 at 10:40 AM
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    TXMiamiFan

    TXMiamiFan SSEM #3 and tractor extraordinaire

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    I don't believe anyone is taking your questions as being disrespectful; you're good.

    I posted that as an answer to your question as to whether or not it's "illegal" to disobey a traffic command by a peace officer. Of course, that is here in CO and some states may be different.

    Are they still acting as LEOs? In CO, I believe that is a yes. Here in my county they do this service in full unis and company cars. May or may not be the same by county.
     
  23. May 7, 2018 at 10:48 AM
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    gdiep

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    You may be right, that it is state by state. In my area, they do not dress in full uniforms and they do not take their patrol units. I just do as they instruct me to do. Too dangerous to try to go around. Not worth the potential of getting into an accident or anyone getting hurt. My BIL is sargent and states that they are working as private citizens when they do that off duty kind of work. So it appears that they cannot write a ticket in that instance.
     
  24. May 7, 2018 at 10:55 AM
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    TXMiamiFan

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    Might be right. Will have to ask around; might learn something new.
     
  25. May 7, 2018 at 10:58 AM
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    T-Rex266

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    Out here most times they are in uniform; meaning said company is paying the PD $XX/Hour who in then takes a portion of that to pay the over-time Officer(s) so they are acting in a LE manner.
     
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  26. May 7, 2018 at 11:54 AM
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    War Machine

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    I’ve seen so much variance that I just wasn’t sure if it counted as working in their official capacity. I think they’ve always been in uniform, but only about half the time are they using police vehicles. Like I said, I also see a lot of private security firms doing it.
    My only experience is when I’ve hired officers for our company events. The local chief only asks that I go through him for the requests. He wants to make sure that first of all, he’s aware of it, and second, that all officers get equal opportunities to make the extra money.
    We used to have a couple of officers that we knew well, so we’d just call them. He told me a couple of years ago that he needed me to set things up with him.
     
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  27. May 7, 2018 at 12:30 PM
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    mlucas555

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    In Texas, Police Officers working off-duty gigs can stop traffic the same as if they were on-duty. Should they have stopped you being the only vehicle, i would think not.
    Now, when it comes to private security companies, under Texas Law, they cannot stop traffic to let others leave a parking lot. I have been a Security Officer in Texas since 2002. Security Officers should only being stopping traffic on the property that they work on, Wal Mart Security should not be blocking traffic in the streets, only in the parking lots.
    School District Police Officers, in Texas, have the same powers as other police officers in the state. So, yes, they can block traffic that is outside of the District that they work for.
    I am not sure how it is in other states, but I bet it is almost the same.
     
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  28. May 7, 2018 at 1:33 PM
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    mt95

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    My two cents is that folks today need to come with grips that an automobile is not a time machine. Everybody drives like there life depends on being at their destination in five seconds. Come on folks, get a grip. Relax and let the church or school or whatever do their thing. Your blood pressure will thank you. Live to enjoy another day and not get all worked up!!
     
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  29. May 7, 2018 at 2:01 PM
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    HamHands

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    I've often wondered about this, but from the other side. I am an administrator at a high school, and each day at dismissal we have to roll out about 40-50 busses. They have a strict schedule to maintain and a driving pattern to hold, so they all need to go out at once, single file. Each afternoon, I walk out into the highway and stop traffic. I don't even have a stop sign or anything, I just wait for a gap and walk out and stop both lanes by standing in the middle of the road and holding up my hand. Then I direct the busses out of the bus lot and hold the traffic until they are all out and moving down the highway. Then I move out of the street and signal for traffic to resume normal operation. We have a school resource officer who will do this for me on occasion, but most of the time it falls to me. Matter of fact, I just did it about an hour ago.

    Do I have the authority to do this? Probably not. I am a school official, not a law enforcement officer. Sure, I am acting in lieu of a law enforcement officer by his directive, so I guess I could argue that I'm briefly "deputized," but really I'm just a private citizen walking into the street blocking traffic. I KNOW it's annoying and I KNOW it seems like I don't have the right to do it (I would probably be annoyed too), but does that stop me from doing it? Absolutely not. I have a job to get done, and I'm going to do it. I've had a few people swerve around me, but for the most part, people are respectful and understanding. The way I see it is you're either going to stop or you're going to run me over, in which case you're just creating bigger problems for yourself lol.

    So yeah, it's annoying and inconvenient. But sometimes there really aren't any other ways around it (pun intended) :D
     
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  30. May 7, 2018 at 2:04 PM
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    BuckWallace

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    Heck if I'd ever do that! If that's really expected of you then you really should ask for some better resources to accomplish it, because I wouldn't risk my life standing on the highway to stop traffic just so some busses can get going.
     
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