Be glad the tundra has a nickel-metal-hybrid battery pack

looks like the lithium supply is going kaput causing ev pricing to spike by 26% by 2026

https://jalopnik.com/lithium-shortage-expected-to-spike-ev-prices-and-batter-1848955555

 

Same as the prius in 1997, so not much progress.

I'm sure you've read there are many other alternatives being worked on such as Iron based, readily available. Give it time, we're just in the Model A of electrics era.

 

Jalopnik is the shyt!!
That is all I have to add

 

In one of those youtube videos, the poster (TFL? Alex on Autos?) said the real reason Toyota decided to go with Nickel was that they couldn't get their hands on enough lithium batteries. They seemed to think it had nothing to do with safety concerns, heat, etc...they said they heard it from a Toyota engineer.

I understand that it's youtube and these people aren't exactly the Wall Street Journal, but I suspect they were probably right. From what I've read and been told, most of the Lithium mines are in China and they're prioritizing their own consumption.

 

Toyota uses different battery materials for different trim Camry Hybrids, all due to supply issues. They don't want to use the same type of batteries if they encounter a supply issue. I wouldn't be surprised if lithium becomes a huge issue very soon. Toyota has been doing this for over 20 years, they are typically ahead of the curve. Unless you throw covid, shut downs in Japan and lack of water supply issues at factories into the mix.(You can't make this stuff up)

 

It's a 1.87 kWh battery. Literally the LiFePO4 battery I bought for my travel trailer is larger than that and its not that expensive, $500-600 my cost but probably significantly lower for Toyota. The difference in cost for an i-force max would not be significantly impacted, maybe a couple hundred dollars at most vs the price tag of ~$3000 for the whole hybrid system.

 

Toyota is NEVER ahead of the curve. Usually they are right on the curve and just make minor improvements(which is okay, let another manufacture be the test subject).

Toyota screwed up the tundra hybrid. I want an efficient truck, not just brute force.

Tacoma Prime... PLEASE HAPPEN.

 

Tacoma Prime is going to be hard to make work unless they can use Lithium batteries.

 

All the funding that went into wind and solar should have gone into R+D for Nuclear and Battery tech (not involving lithium and cobalt.) But then there would have been less opportunity for corruption... sigh.

 

Toyota pack is 288 V... And can produce at least 36 kW of sustained power. Anyway, is there any reason to use Li over NiMH in this application? If it was a plugin with a NiMH battery it would be another story…

 

It doesnt really matter what the voltage is, its just how they arrange the cells in series vs parallel. At the end of the day, its still the same number of cells as a 12V battery of the same kWh capacity, just arranged in a different order.

My LiFePO4 battery is 2.176 kWh.

It can provide 36 kW for 3 minutes assuming you completely drained the battery from 100% to 0%, which I bet they don't let you do. My guess is it won't go much below 20% and much over 80%. The reality is this thing is not providing you sustained 36 kW for more than a short burst.

 

Toyota uses a combination of NiMH and Li-ion batteries across the range. NiMH is larger, withstands extreme temperature swings a little better, etc. Li-ion is much lighter and allows for greater mpg or more options on the vehicle without mpg tradeoff.

Siennas use NiMH. Prius I think still has both as options. Camrys used to be the same but I think they are all Li-ion now.

 

All they need to do is copy the rav4 prime's concept. Sure they need lithium batteries. But instead of making a fully electric(bz4x) they could make 3 hybrids like the rav4 prime/tacoma prime. A tacoma prime would do about 95 percent of what I need. The other 5 percent.. I can rent or borrow a truck. Those old tacoma 2wd trucks that were low to the ground and car like? That is exactly what we need as a tacoma prime.(think those old std cab or access cab 2wd with the stupid small tires)...

Bz4x battery size: 71.4kwh
Rav4 prime battery size: 18.1

So a solid 3 rav4 primes for every 1 bz4x. The rav4 prime's battery is enough to get 98 percent of the population to work and back on a single charge. No range anxiety because it still has a gasoline engine.
I haven't bought gasoline in 3000 miles in my rav4 prime.
I do have solar to charge it(and enough energy to send back to the grid on top of that).

Heck maybe 5 percent of the people on here need a tundra and actually use it's capacity. My neighbor just bought a nice truck a year or so ago. I don't think he has EVER put anything in the bed of it.

 

Blasphemy!

The EPA is killing my half ton with their MPG requirements even though all I do is tow air!

 

If the tacoma was okay to drive... that is what I would be driving right now LOL I just hate their automatic so much, I have a tundra(That I love). I don't need a tundra at all. I think I have towed near capacity three times in 2 years. Most everything else I have done could have been done with a tacoma

 

I can tell you that without a doubt, if the Rivian was 30% cheaper, I'd be on that forum right now and not a Tundra forum. I think it would do everything I want, is the right size, I love the features, and it almost seems like the thing was made for me...until I saw the price.

 

And now its even more expensive than it originally was. Only people who already ordered are getting it for the original pricing structure, and that was only after they threw a collective hissy-fit about them retroactively jacking up everyone's(including existing orders) prices by $12k.

So its now $67k for the dual motor(600hp) with the standard range(260 mile) battery.

 

The voltage does matter though. It requires an insane amount of amperage to make 12V produce 36 kW. Anyway, there’s definitely more to it than just these numbers we’re discussing and I don’t know enough to make any judgments one way or another. Which battery chemistry is better? No clue but they chose NiMH.

 

In terms of the amount of cells, size, weight, and energy capacity(1.86 kWh), voltage does not matter. At 288V it needs 125 amps to produce 36kW. I assume they have litterally hundreds of cells as a single NiMH cell is ~1.25V nominal. They need ~230 cells in series to hit 288V and I am guessing they have multiple 230 cell groups in parallel.

They probably chose NiMH because of the relatively small size and weight of the pack and its cheap and probably less susceptible to environmental conditions. I bet its <60lbs. My 2.2 kWh lithium was 42 lbs.

They don't really need to worry about weight there. Its not like its a hummer with a 300 kwh battery.

 

I'm glad we complained, my price would have gone up 26k, not 12k.

 

Yeah, that's the crazy part. The base price went up 12k but the options also increase in price.

 

From what I've read there's a massive deposits of lithium in Ukraine. It's the type of lithium suitable for making batteries. There are also abundant deposits of cobalt, nickel and other precious metals. They are located in the cities where Russia is in right now.

There were 2 mining companies bidding on lithium mining right before the war, one from Australia and one from China.

Toyota had used nickel hydride batteries in the previous models on medium duty Hino trucks here in the U.S.
It has the same operating principle as the new Tundra hybrids.

 

1000 percent same here. It would do everything I need... just not at that price LOL
I wish the tacoma had a decent drive train or they offered more models with a manual.
I want an access cab, trd offroad with the 6ft bed with a manual. IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?

 

I'm hoping to trade the Tundra in for an electric Tacoma once they come out, assuming it has a huge towing capacity like the Rivian

 

Everybody needs go buy an EV, bunch of people start buying them. Shortly after at the EV headquarters, let’s tell everybody these already prohibitively expensive EV’s are going way up due to…spins wheel…lithium shortage. Whole bunch of lithium right here at home in the Salton Sea. Not anything new, lithium has not been profitable enough to tap into previously, looks like it is now. Regular people didn't want the Salton Sea to disappear, but better for future lithium production maybe. The rich get richer. Lol.

 

Toyota is never going to adopt Lithium as their primary battery tech. They are holding out using what they have and can source for cheap while they finish building their manufacturing infrastructure for solid state batteries. They are the future of EVs, hybrids, and batteries in general. A fraction of the weight of equivalent power storage in Lithium, 3-4x faster charging rates, and are SIGNIFICANTLY safer and more stable, especially when compromised. All that even considering we're looking at Gen1 solid state tech vs the Gen12 or so we are at for Lithium now. The main downside of solid state batteries at this point is lack of manufacturing infrastructure resulting in higher cost, even though they are actually simpler in design and will be cheaper to produce once the infrastructure exists.

Toyota is expecting to rollout SS batteries into their vehicle lineup by 2025
- https://www.motor1.com/news/559226/toyota-production-car-solid-state-battery-2025/
- https://techinspection.net/toyotas-big-bet-on-solid-state-battery/

Solid state is the future. I believe in 10 years we will have EVs with significantly longer ranges than current ICE vehicles, with charge times that come very close to current fossil fuel refueling times.

Let's take Tesla's current 400 mile range Model S as an example. If we consider we can get 2.5x energy density (Battery storage in the same space/weight) by switching to solid state, that's 1000 miles of range, significantly more than most people get in their gas vehicles. Even when considering you only run the battery from 20-80% to extend its life (60% of 1000 is 600 miles of range), or that you may experience an additional 20% loss due to temperature extremes (80% of 600 is 480 miles), you still end up quite a bit above the current average ICE range of around 300 miles.

- Gas pumps in the US are capped at 10gpm. If your car gets 30mpg it takes 1 minute to get 300 miles of range.

- Current Tesla super charging tech allows you to get 240 miles of range in about 27 minutes. As you can see in the table below, charging happens faster the more empty the battery is. 80-100% takes about the same amount of time as 0-80%.


- Solid state batteries can charge from 0-80% in 15 minutes. If we assume the car has an 1000 mile range, that's 800 miles in 15 minutes and 400 miles in around 5 minutes. Once EVs start posting range #s and charge times like this, people will start buying them out of sheer convenience.

This video gives a great rundown if you've got a few minutes and are interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2ou4JQbuZQ&feature=youtu.be

 

WHAAAT? YA DON'T SAY? You mean we can't replace 300 million cars on the roads in the US with EVs by 2030? Not to mention road tractors, rail engines, etc. Lithium is finite also.

What solid state batteries do not require lithium? tell me. Do you even know what solid state means?

 

um isnt that what the post was about and the article mentioned in a nutshell?

 

yes, I'm paraphrasing the morons that thing exactly what I said but unironically.

 

I really don't know why any time EVs and battery tech are mentioned on this forum, someone comes along and cynically rushes to call us all idiots. Yes, we understand not all vehicles on American roads will be electric by 2030. Nobody suggested they would be.