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Install complete on additional transmission cooler

Discussion in '2.5 Gen Tundras (2014-2021)' started by Krohsis, Apr 15, 2017.

  1. Apr 21, 2017 at 11:41 PM
    #31
    TTund16

    TTund16 New Member

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    just curious, did you have to add extra trans fluid to account for the series cooler? also I assume the pump can handle the additional volume in the system.
     
  2. Apr 22, 2017 at 5:21 AM
    #32
    Krohsis

    Krohsis [OP] New Member

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    Yes, I actually did a complete "bucket flush" of the system when I added the cooler. So that process took care of the additional volume. My concern with the addition of the B&M cooler in series with the stock cooler was increased flow resistance. After a 30 minute discussion with a tech on the phone, I have less concerns about that, at least in the Tundra. Adding fluid volume is not a problem.....for example you can get a deeper pan for the Tundra, which is a good idea, and one some might like to do rather than an additional cooler. Here is a link to a manufacturer of a deep pan for the Tundra with some pictures of it installed.

    https://www.yourcovers.com/transpan_11151.php
     
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  3. Apr 25, 2017 at 10:41 AM
    #33
    Krohsis

    Krohsis [OP] New Member

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    IMG_0003.jpg IMG_0002.jpgI owed you guys some more data that I promised. I got some and I'm still looking for some. Here are two documents from the service manual on the AB50E, my tranny and the AB50F. There is also the AB760E and the AB760F in other Tundras. Anyway one page has some info on the wax controlled thermostat I mentioned. The other document has info that the High Temp Warning idiot light comes on from the sensor in the pan. We know that the idiot light comes on at 302*, and we know the torque converter temps can run as high as 40+ degrees above pan temps under heavy load. So any way you cut it, Toyota misses the mark on when high tranny fluid temps become dangerous enough to turn on a warning light. The light should be one tell you to get our your wallet out as you have just permanently and heavily damaged your tranny. I still haven't found the temp the thermostat lifts to send fluid to the cooler. I'll look some more later, but like I said, I believe it is in the 240-250* range.
     
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  4. Apr 25, 2017 at 10:49 AM
    #34
    Spvrtan

    Spvrtan Amateur fabricator

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    I don't really tow but I really want to do this and extend the pan purely for longevity reasons of everything -- would you recommend? Also, do you plan on doing a more detailed DIY guide on how you did this?
     
  5. Apr 25, 2017 at 11:38 AM
    #35
    Krohsis

    Krohsis [OP] New Member

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    Well, I didn't take any pics of the cooler install other than the before and after above. I could do a narrative if people would like without pics, but I know pics are very helpful. If you don't tow, I wouldn't bother with a second cooler. The most I would do would be pin the thermostat open, and maybe the bigger trans pan. By pinning the thermostat open, the stock cooler by itself is sufficient to cool the tranny at most loads if you're not towing or hauling big loads in the bed of the truck. Definitely get a temp gauge of your choice, I prefer Scan Gauge II, but there are others that work well too. That is the most important, being able to see what your temps are.
     
  6. Apr 25, 2017 at 11:40 AM
    #36
    Spvrtan

    Spvrtan Amateur fabricator

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    Well, I have a supercharger so I already have a 2nd cooler ..I was thinking of adding a 3rd, haha. Maybe I'll just go with the deeper pan for more liquid capacity.
     
  7. Apr 26, 2017 at 5:22 AM
    #37
    Krohsis

    Krohsis [OP] New Member

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    Ha Ha, yeah, a third might be overkill.
     
  8. Apr 26, 2017 at 8:08 PM
    #38
    TRD Pro Rookie

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    Nothing major
    The link to the larger pan says 2007-2015. Will it work for 16? How do I know which tranny I have?
     
  9. Apr 26, 2017 at 9:15 PM
    #39
    TTund16

    TTund16 New Member

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    FYI
    Update regarding 204F thermostat opening (wax melting) with my car:

    John and I compared scangauge code and I just double checked again and the codes are the same. we also have same model year cars!
    As i have mentioned before, I haven't towed anything and maybe as the weather gets warmer or if I start towing, things will change and I will get the same results as John and will update.

    There is also a long & nasty hill nearby and I am going to try in S3 and see if I can get a higher TC temp. 214F is the max TC temp that I have ever seen in my car without towing and that was for a very short time before the temp dropped to mid 180's.

    This has become more of a curiosity for me than a concern about the temperatures ... and you know curiosity killed the cat :)
     
  10. Apr 27, 2017 at 6:35 AM
    #40
    Krohsis

    Krohsis [OP] New Member

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    On the VIN sticker located at the B pillar drivers door it will say what pan you have. The pan is only made for the AB60E and the AB60F, NOT the AB760E nor the AB760F. Mine is a 2016 and I have the AB60E.
     
  11. Apr 28, 2017 at 4:20 PM
    #41
    TRD Pro Rookie

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    I have the AB60F. Very cool. Does the larger pan reduce ground clearance?

    Edited to say that was probably a stupid question since you installed the cooler not the pan. Sorry.

    I like the price of the cooler way better than the pan anyway. Thanks for the post.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
  12. Apr 29, 2017 at 5:44 AM
    #42
    Krohsis

    Krohsis [OP] New Member

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    I just noticed an interesting issue that may skew my data. The sensors in the transmission seem to be off on temps by either 7 degrees, or perhaps 10%, or even some other scale. My Scan Gauge is the same as the one I used on my 2014 Tacoma. On the Tacoma the temp readout on the scan gauge before start up, after sitting over night, would indicate temps within 1-2 degrees of ambient. In the Tundra, they are 7 degrees warmer than ambient at 68-70 degrees. I have confirmed the accuracy of my thermometers that are giving me ambient temps, with two of them agreeing with each other. Even placing them in the garage at the same height as the transmission. The 7 degrees is consistent over the last couple days. So at this point I will need to wait until ambient temps climb enough to have a higher temp over night and measure the difference. If it stays 7 degrees spread at say 100 degrees in the garage it is likely the sensors are just out of wack by 7 degrees and that should remain constant to operating temps. But, if the difference change as the temps go up, it could be a percentile issue, and that could be more difficult to know what the actual temp is. As an example, if at 100 degrees ambient, if the sensors read 10 degrees hotter, it is likely there is a 10% error in the sensors, as at about 70 degrees ambient the sensors are off by 7 degrees. That will make the operating temp error much larger. If it is just a flat 7 degrees at 200 indicated the actual temp would likely be 193 degrees. But if there is a 10% error, at 200 degrees indicated the actual temp would be closer to 180 degrees, at 240 degrees the actual would be 216, etc. Once I know more, I will report results. Oh yes, both sensors, torque converter and pan are giving the same temp prior to start up in the morning. So this could be all the sensors are off in Tundras, or I could have gotten 2 bad ones. More to follow.
     
  13. Apr 29, 2017 at 11:32 PM
    #43
    TTund16

    TTund16 New Member

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    John,

    Just in case it is not the sensors, what is your xgauge sw version? mine is 4.22 I think.
    Over-night cool off may not be long enough and may take the internal parts longer to reach the ambient temp. See if you can wait couple of days.

    The temps I read are normally with 1-2F of each other if the car has been sitting for a couple of days in the garage.

    for example on 3/22/2017 before starting the car:
    garage temp = 52F old fashioned analog thermometer
    Car dash temp = 50F
    SG Coolant = 49F
    SG Intake Temp = 53F
    SG TC Temp = 50F
    SG Pan Temp = 50F

    ... and yes, I save any collected data in an excel sheet :rolleyes: :pccoffee:
    I wouldn't worry too much about 7 degrees if they are consistent.

    We have another car (not a Toyota) and the air temp (read by torque app) is usually 15-20F lower than the car dash display which is very accurate.
    The car is still under warranty and it runs great and the gas millage is also as expected in summer and winter so I have ignored it and didn't even bother taking it in and trying to explain and having them mess with the car!
     
  14. Apr 30, 2017 at 4:09 AM
    #44
    Krohsis

    Krohsis [OP] New Member

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    Your temps are more what I was used to with the Tacoma. I believe the tranny is cooling down to ambient as the difference between temps has been consistent over several days. But, I would agree 7 degrees is not a big spread if it is only that. My concern is if it is a percentage, then the temps may get wonky and unknown at the upper ends. It is better if they read hotter than what the temps are rather than lower, but it still kills this guy who is a bit OCD with his stuff... :( Thanks for sharing your data.....
     
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  15. Apr 30, 2017 at 8:39 PM
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    TTund16

    TTund16 New Member

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    Hey I am very OCD with the Tundra but not as much with our other cars. The novelty may wear off in a few but I doubt it :)
    Did you ever display SG WTF, IA, TF2, TF1 (like I did above) and you have the dash temp also . This way you can test and verify 5 sensors.

    7 degrees higher and consistent is safer than 7 degrees lower since the warning light and messages will come on sooner ... not that you will ever get there with the additional cooler, etc.

    I don't know the specs but you would think the sensors should have %1 or less tolerance maybe 1-2F degrees off at 200F!
    you are seeing about %10 off and definitely outside any reasonable tolerance!

    if they don't have to gut the car to get to the sensors, I would consider taking it to the dealer. pros and cons of accurate sensors vs. surgery!
    they may question your methods (i.e. the scangauge) and if they have to gut it ($$) they may resist and you have to go from there.
     
  16. May 1, 2017 at 5:33 AM
    #46
    Krohsis

    Krohsis [OP] New Member

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    Yeah, getting at the sensors is not easy, and knowing how inept many techs are, I don't want their fingers in the tranny. It likely would come away from that event with more issues than it went in the shop for. If need be, I will do some research and find out the what the readings on the sensor translate to for a temp reading. Then over time I can extrapolate those readings to a graph. I will only consider this if it appears the error readings are variable, or a percentage of the true temp. I need to gather data for now at a variety of temps. Bottom line, I know my tranny is running cooler when towing than it would have been without the mods I have done. Once I have good data, I will share. I may see if my neighbor will play too, so I can determine if this is an issue with just my rig or more likely a problem with Gen 3s. The fact that two sensors have the same issue, it likely is NOT the sensors.

    I will take a look at other sensors as well, that is a good idea to see if the problem is in the SG. I know water temp and volts are in the money with the Tundra instrumentation as those are the other two I monitor with it. The gauge grid is not real precise on the Tundra gauges, but clearly they are in the same area and they mirror measurements as they change.
     
  17. May 1, 2017 at 10:59 AM
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    Nor7

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    I'm just going to leave this right here....

    Should have bought a 2nd gen...

    13Tundra-Unkown-Tow-1024x576.jpg
     
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  18. May 1, 2017 at 11:03 AM
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    Nor7

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    And of course...

     
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  19. May 1, 2017 at 11:39 AM
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    Krohsis

    Krohsis [OP] New Member

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    20140430_114121.jpg

    Should have stayed with a REAL truck for a tow vehicle instead of going with a BARBIE truck like the Tundra... ;-)
     
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  20. May 1, 2017 at 8:04 PM
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    TTund16

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    main problem is that we are dealing with truck enthusiast groups in here ... I have a friends with a 2010 Tundra and tows (up to 5000 lbs.) 4 or 5 times a week as a fishing guide and his truck has 130K and I asked him how often you change the trans fluid and he said I don't have money to waste like you do. I asked the judge to treat him as a hostile witness ... I asked how often he changed it on his last truck which was older Tundra with almost 300K on it and he said at 100K or 150K he thinks ... and that car ran great and sounded great. he said is going to change the fluids on his 2010 this summer after a lecture from me :) I am not recommending over 100K change intervals but average people don't get bogged down too much on this kind of things and these trucks are built tough.
    I changed the fluids on my Tacoma at 50K the 1st time and then every 75K or so but its a manual trans. and not much towing.
     
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  21. May 2, 2017 at 5:53 AM
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    Nor7

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    Ok... who let a Tacoma guy in here?
     
  22. May 2, 2017 at 3:32 PM
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    csuviper

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    Talking about this flush of the transmission, i am almost to 60k miles and will be getting with @LOTSOFTOYS for a flush in the near future.
     
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  23. May 2, 2017 at 8:28 PM
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    TTund16

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    :spy:
    ...
    no guilty of owning both :D
     
  24. Jun 8, 2017 at 4:34 PM
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    gitout

    gitout New Member

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    Krohsis : Thanks for your sharing your solution and research!

    My 2016 Tundra 5.7L w/ tow has 45k miles. I just had the dealer change the transmission fluid. It was dark. The truck has pulled a small enclosed trailer a couple times (4-5,000 lbs) in S4 with tow haul mode. It has carried a 4wheelcamper (popup style) full time since 20k miles. Typically runs in Drive in "Tow Mode". When driving on a beach in Baja the idiot light came on (only time it's happened). Probably should have put it in low range right away. Was only on the beach for a minute or so. Crazy how fast it will heat up. It cooled off fairly quickly in Neutral. Otherwise, no lights and no issues. I figured servicing it early couldn't hurt. Bit surprised to find the oil dark. I've ordered a OBD reader to monitor the temperatures in regular driving. I'm curious what it will show.

    Your discussion has prompted me to research this further. It seems that 260-280 is the max range for synthetic oil (what Toyota uses). Surprised to hear the warning light doesn't activate until after that. Really wonder if that true, although not interested in confirming temperature.

    Is there more to the 185-200 degree range that Toyota designed the fluid to run? Economy? I know the coolant heat exchanger helps get the fluid warm enough for the torque converter to lock up. Seems that would set the minimum desired operating temperature. Any idea what that temperature is?

    Here's what I'm wondering:
    Has Toyota engineered the transmission to run hotter. If so, why? And what temperature causes issues or shortens its life?

    Reading online and everyone sharing old information about temperatures over 200 degrees. Yes, this was true with dino fluids. Modern synthetics can easily go higher without issues. So what about the other seals and components. What are they rated for?

    What is the ideal temperature range for this transmission?

    I've installed trans coolers on all of my off road vehicles (that have been automatic). And did the radiator bypass on my 99 4runner with large external cooler (no negative effects realized). Seeing the dark fluid in the Tundra has me concerned enough to question whats going on.
     
  25. Jun 9, 2017 at 9:54 AM
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    gitout

    gitout New Member

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    Spoke with John @ IPT - http://www.importperformancetrans.com/

    He does valve body modifications to improve shift speed and clutch locking force. He did the valve body for my 99 4runner SC years ago. Impressive difference in shifting. He echoed the same thoughts that you guys are saying. Keep temps under 220 degrees. Ideally under 200 degrees.

    His recommendation : Anyone towing should add a secondary cooler minimally. He recommended these: http://www.trucool.com/products/tru-cool-max -- They have a bypass to keep from overcooling the fluid. They have twice or better the cooling capability of most coolers.

    Anyone with supercharger absolutely should have the valve body modified. I'm seriously considering having mine done especially after seeing the fluid with only 45k miles (and I baby the truck). Ordering a cooler now.
     
  26. Jun 12, 2017 at 9:48 AM
    #56
    gitout

    gitout New Member

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    Figured I'd share the conversation between Krohsis and I:

    Did you unpin the transmission thermostat? What temperature range are you seeing with the auxiliary cooler? I assume the thermostat will keep the transmission oil from being too cold. I'd like to keep that system in place yet avoid over heating.

    I'm looking at whether or not to get an external cooler with temperature bypass or not. It seems unnecessary if keeping the factory thermostat in place.

    __________________________

    No, never unpinned the thermostat, even at below freezing temps. Since the engine coolant heat exchanger system was always operational, I never saw tranny temps that were so low I got concerned. If you rely on the thermostat, no matter how many tranny coolers you have, it won't open until about 230*, which is well on it's way to being too hot. My aux cooler is the design that reduces flow of fluid at colder temps, so overcooling shouldn't be a problem, but I will have to wait until winter to see if that ends up being a problem. I can tell you that the additional cooler is what the system needed. I will be towing in a couple weeks in 100+ temps and will report how the additional cooler does in that environment. Currently the warmest I have driven in is 90* ambient. I haven't pulled either, but climbed a 10 mile 7% grade. In that situtation the temps never got over 150*.....ALTHOUGH, unlocking the tranny and really putting my foot into it, I could get the temps to climb. So, that is an important note. Just putting a cooler on the rig is not the only thing needed to keep temps down. Gear selection when under load will affect temps as well.....hope this answers your questions.

    __________________________

    That's what I was wondering. It seems like a poor design as it takes time for the thermostat to open and the cooler to have any effect on the temperatures. 230* seems way too hot. It could easily spike another 20*+ before the cooler kicks in.

    So with the thermostat pinned, the coolant heat exchanger system is still operational to assist warming the fluid to proper "safe" operational levels?

    Are you seeing the best temperatures towing in "tow haul mode" with gear selection?

    I've noticed the transmission likes to unlock the torque converter easily in 6th gear for extended periods before shifting to 5th. I'd guess this really heats stuff up.

    Finding your research was perfect timing after discovering the dark fluid with fairly low miles. This seems to be something people should address. Most Tundra owners seem extremely ignorant and influenced by media hype.

    __________________________

    I always tow in tow haul mode due to how the shift points are set better for towing.

    I'm in tow haul and in S4, always. S4 locks up the soonest and for the longest under load. Yes, 6th gear is unlocked very easily and frequently. 5th is a better choice if you're towing and the revs/fuel economy of S4 bothers you.

    Yes, your comment about Tundra owners being ignorant of their tranny heating issues made me laugh. If you bring this topic up to most of them, they scoff at you. I put the info out there as I gain data for anyone that might want to look into the problem for themselves.

    __________________________

    Would it be alright to share this conversation on your thread? Seems like relevant information. I'll add more after installing a cooler.

    I'm looking at bypassing the factory cooler altogether. Do you see any issues with that? Looking at a massive overkill unit from Tru Cool LPD47391. I'd prefer to simplify the connections / lines. I don't see any need for factory cooler as well and creates more failure points and more fluid resistance.

    __________________________

    Sure, share away.....with the cooler you have selected, which I will need to read about more as I like what I see at first blush, I would bypass the factory cooler. I too was concerned about fluid resistance, but after talking to a B&M tech for about 1/2 an hour, I felt less concerned. But with that said, if you can limit fluid resistance, it's a good thing. The B&M I chose is the same as the Tru Cool H7B. The BTU rating on the 47391 is awesome, 15,000 BTUs over what I installed, which is 50% more cooling....I would be interested in seeing your install and whatever data you might like to share after you have had a chance to road test it.
     
  27. Jun 14, 2017 at 12:46 AM
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    Paulskie

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    Great topic. Very helpful.
     
  28. Jun 14, 2017 at 9:18 AM
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    757TUNDRA

    757TUNDRA Not a New Member

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    Installed my Scangauge II so I could start monitoring the trans temps (pan and torque converter) while towing the camper. Monitored them religiously while I towed with my Tacoma but never thought much about it on the Tundra until I started following this thread. I'm towing my camper 1,000 miles this weekend so I'm curious to see how high they go. Will report back sometime next week.
     
  29. Jun 14, 2017 at 4:55 PM
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    gitout

    gitout New Member

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    If you want an inexpensive way to monitor the transmission and any other system. Download the Torque App ($5) and OBDII Bluetooth ($13 Amazon). Need to program a the transmission codes in. But seems to work great.

    My experience so far:
    Start Up : Temp was within 4-5 degrees of outdoor air temp. Transmission and Converter same temp.
    Heating up the fluid took some time. Even pulling hills. It would climb and then hold. It was a consistent increase until reaching coolant temp and then it wouldn't drop below coolant temperature.

    It was 60 degrees going over the mountain. The max pan temperature was 206 degrees. Torque Converter was up to 238 degrees! The pan temperature would lag behind the torque converter and then start climbing. Once it increased, it took some time to drop even going down hills. It was clear the thermostat had not been activated. Which is insane! Why have a transmission cooler if the thermostat blocks it?!?!

    I pulled off about 45 minutes from my destination and decided to try pinning the thermostat open. Temperature dropped to 160 degrees. After driving for 30 minutes and climbing some hills it increased to a maximum of 175 degrees and then back to 168 degrees on flats. Torque converter got up to 198 degrees. This portion of the drive was at 70 degrees (outside temp). No trailer.

    You guys pulling trailers need to improve the cooling system! Even with the factory cooler it will get HOT. I'll see how temperatures do with the factory cooler bypassed and Tru Cool LPD47391 installed.
     
  30. Jun 26, 2017 at 1:43 PM
    #60
    757TUNDRA

    757TUNDRA Not a New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2016
    Member:
    #3362
    Messages:
    721
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Tim
    Illinois
    Vehicle:
    2018 Barcelona Red Metallic Platinum 4x4
    OEM Bed Cover, OEM Bed Rail System, OEM Bedmat, OEM Doorsill Protectors, OEM TRD Rear Sway Bar, OEM Color Matched Door Handles, OEM Color Matched Mirror Caps, OEM Bed Net, OEM Driver Side Grab Handle, BFG K02 LT275/60/20, WeatherTech Digifit FloorLiners, Salex OCD Console Organizer, Salex Console Tray
    I towed my camper approximately 1,000 miles last weekend with my Scangauge II monitoring my transmission temps at the pan and converter. We were moving from Virginia to Illinois and I had the camper packed with stuff we didn't want the movers touching and the camper weighed approximately 4,000 lbs. I towed in S4 in Tow/Haul Mode at 65 mph (approx 3,000 rpms) nearly the entire trip and my trans temps at both locations hovered between 197 and 199 depending on the terrain and my water temp hovered around 195. The only time my trans temps moved above 199 was during stop and go traffic (the converter hit 214 once), and during one mountain climb in West Virginia. About half-way up a big mountain a car cut me off and I had to let off the accelerator. I had to slow my speed from 65 down to about 45 and once I started accelerating again the trans temps started to climb until I hit the top of the mountain. The temp at the converter hit 238 at the top of the mountain and it was 210 at the pan. If I didn't have to slow down and unlock the converter I'm pretty sure the temp would have remained at 199 the whole climb, just like it did during all of the other climbs. Once I topped the mountain the temp dropped back down to 199 within 10-15 seconds. My best mpg on a tank was 12.2 and my worst was 9.5. At the end of the trip I averaged 11.1 mpg. I'm sure my trans temps would have been higher pulling a larger and heavier camper, but wanted to share the temps I saw pulling a 4,000 lb camper.

     
    ColoradoTJ likes this.

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