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Aging Dogs…Hold them back or let them live how they like?

Discussion in 'Pets' started by CorpsTundra, Aug 17, 2021.

  1. Nov 17, 2021 at 9:05 PM
    #31
    Tripleconpanna

    Tripleconpanna Just an X who bought Bud Light from Target

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    Beautiful pups!!!

    Sorry for the delay in response... But, I hope you find some value in the following information... Regarding my basis for providing you this information... I've personally worked 2 Malinois and 1 Dutch Shepherd in LEO capacity (SWAT/Patrol). All 3 of these dogs became part of my family as they transitioned into their retirements, where they remained up to and through their passing (my last Mal is currently 11). I've also taken another Mal from his transition from SWAT dog to retirement. This dog was handled by someone else, but he was an extremely hard dog and his handler was not able to integrate him into his own family. Fortunately, I've been able to provide him a comfortable and active retirement. Finally, I raised a (non-professional but highly driven) Dutch from puppy to his current age of 8. I am not a veterinarian, so please take what I say w/a grain of salt and always work closely w/your own vet and within your own abilities as you work and train w/your pups. With that said, here is my answer to your question...

    Holding your dogs back will cause them to age and deteriorate faster. These breeds are bred to work and play hard, and you have to structure intense work or play for them on a regular (daily) basis. However, intense work and play isn't always about jumping 8-10 feet in the air; slamming into a decoy at 25-30mph; or even hard running until the dog is about to drop... It's really about problem solving and learning new experiences and new ways to interact w/you and your family. Dogs want to learn; they want to be productive; and they want to do so within your pack structure.

    About 30-35% of a dog's brain is dedicated to processing odor; closed mouth inhalation (when the dog is processing target odor in some form of scent work such as detection, tracking, etc.) is approximately 140-200 times per minute. Scent based nose work and problem solving is actually a better conditioning exercise than running the dog. It increases the heart rate and uses a large portion of the brain w/o impact to the joints.

    Another idea is to push obedience and control to even higher levels, but make sure you contrast that control w/even more intense prey based tug-type play. Reward often and play hard. If you find your dogs bang themselves up when you reward w/a ball, use a tug toy or a ball that has a rope through it to minimize the bouncing around. Dog gets toy, you strongly entice a tug game and then play hard w/him or her.

    Another way to reduce or minimize injury is to vary the schedule. So maybe run/fetch/retrieve only 1 day a week; Obedience everyday; Hunt games 4-5 times a week (again use detection or tracking type work here); Swimming if available to you 2-3 times a week; Directional control 2-3 times a week; Non-impact agility 1-2 times a week, etc....

    As another example... My 11 year old Mal, who loves to hit and loves to bite, will injure himself on almost any running apprehension we do w/him now. So, for the last few years, I don't do running apprehensions with him... But, I still let him bite. I'll put a jacket on or have someone else throw the suit on, and I'll let him take a good full mouth bite and have it for literally as long he wants to continue driving w/pressure. Some days it's 10-15 minutes; other days it's 20-30 minutes; the longest was just under 50 minutes (he was 8 at the time); It will reach a point where the decoy is sitting down on some stairs or a chair and the dog is on all fours just continuing to apply pressure and drive into the decoy. When it's over, the dog is spent (so is the decoy), but his drives are purely satisfied, and his is much more calm and manageable for the next couple of days. The point of this isn't how long he'll bite for, but to illustrate how you can take something they are so driven to do, change a few parameters and satisfy the drive, but do so while minimizing injury and impact on the dog.

    Bottom line, keep having fun and keep working your dogs. Plan on more frequent ailments as they continue to age. Any sign of injury reduce impact, running and jumping for a few days (anti-inflammatory for a few days as needed but no long term), focus on scent work while recovering from an acute injury and use scent work for majority of "work" as dogs age more. Find more ways to encourage them to engage w/you (new training, problem solving, etc.). A good diet and keeping them lean helps considerably, and finally don't forget to evaluate all the activities that may be causing pre-mature aging/arthritis in joints, etc. An example of this is loading and unloading from a vehicle. While we would think jumping out of a car onto the ground would cause more wear and tear than getting in, most vets will agree that jumping into a vehicle (due to angles and pressure put on certain joints) has been proven to cause more harm jumping out. So, look for ways to reduce impact and wear/tear when you can outside of training.

    Hope this helps...
     
  2. Nov 18, 2021 at 8:44 AM
    #32
    CorpsTundra

    CorpsTundra [OP] New Member

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    Great advice, thank you for taking the time to offer it.

    We do have a pond, so they do swim frequently in the warmer months. Swimming and ball are not an option in the winter though, so your advice about alternative work is timely. They love to work no doubt, they are locked in as soon as they know it’s time to train. Admittedly, we could do more by way of training, although we do keep them very active and in good shape.

    Both have been formally trained in bite work and obedience. My girl has been through agility training. My boy has been through nose work training. We had a falling out with the breeder/trainer, so we have since done our training at home. I will continue to go through them for Dutchies, Mals or GSDs, but the training group has too much drama for my liking.

    Like you mentioned, we were told about just how much nose work takes out of them. My boy loves nose work and does very well. The breeder/trainer says he can smell a seed, so the only problem we have training him is when he concentrates on the residual smells. My girl came late to the game of nose work, which came after she took a liking to dismantling cardboard boxes. When we set up a challenge at home, she tries to destroy each box until she destroys the one with the prize. Needless to say it is hilarious, but very difficult to get her to understand what she is being rewarded for.

    I’m going to have to get a sleeve and some teasers. We are amateurs, so I haven’t attempted any bites outside of formal training. I’m hesitant because I don’t want to inadvertently give them the wrong bite cues and negate the work we’ve already done. Another issue is that my boy is very hesitant to show aggression towards any of us. Once he senses a certain aggression point even when we are playing tug he will stop himself and bring us a different toy instead of continuing with a tug toy.

    Either way, I am going to take your advice and implement a training schedule that involves more than just high impact activities.

    Thank you again!
     
  3. Nov 18, 2021 at 7:58 PM
    #33
    Tripleconpanna

    Tripleconpanna Just an X who bought Bud Light from Target

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    You're welcome. Also, please understand that I am in no way advocating that you or someone you know conduct bite work training/activity without a reasonable amount of understanding of the drives associated with bite work. I was offering that depiction as an example of ways to modify or help your pup continue to do things you both love without so much impact/injury. The decoy, trainer, you, etc. need to be able to 'read' what drives are being influenced/manipulated during any bite session. Failure to be able to appropriately read and channel drives in bite work can and will lead to problems up to and including unwanted aggression outside of training. So, your hesitation is well warranted.

    I'm glad you've had some experience in doing scent based training. The different experiences between your two dogs, is similar to what we all see in shaping behavior w/high drive dogs. It can be challenging, but that's part of the fun of it... Seeing the natural behaviors and mannerisms being exhibited by the dogs, then find a path to develop the behavior into the end product you're trying to achieve.

    Residual odor indication is something that almost all high drive dogs will try to offer alert behavior on. Dogs will always try to find the path of least resistance and they will try to cheat their way to reward. Remember, the dog isn't wrong; odor is there. However, if target odor is available (from the source) within the search area, then we obviously want the dog to work toward source and not "alert" on fringe or residual odor. The way you work through it is patience. As the handler, we generally want to "guide" the dog off of the wrong answer (in this case residual odor), when he's offering alert behaviors and starting to frustrate. However, you must offer as little input and influence as possible in this situation. Completely ignore the behavior (this could take several minutes), but eventually the dog will start searching again, and when he does a quick verbal confirmation of the correct decision (to move on) helps ("good boy search"); then quickly move him toward source of target odor; allow him to work back to source (again without direct input such as pointing, vocals, leash manipulation, etc.), and as starts to show change of behavior on that target odor be prepared to reward immediately on the alert behavior (remember he was just alerting on the same "odor" so he may be quick to leave the actual source thinking it will get him the same negative response), so don't wait at all or wait for "perfect" behavior. Once he's alerted and received reward. Play for a second, get your toy back, then immediately put him back to search for the same hide (don't move too far away from it and don't move back toward the residual odor alert location). This time when he starts his alert behavior, wait just a bit longer for more precise alert behavior prior to reward, but still reward quickly enough that he doesn't leave the hide. Play again for a brief period, moving him away from the source odor, and repeat again (same protocol). Now, as you are playing, move him back toward the original residual odor location, remove the reward, and then re-deploy allowing him to sample odor at the residual odor location... If he passes it, great, move toward target odor at the source, once he alerts, reward and heavy play have fun and end the session. However, if he alerts again on the residual, not a problem... Offer no response, wait for him to move on (this time should be a shorter wait for you), and once he does same protocol as above. This is the heart of operant conditioning and the proper way to teach discrimination. Your patience and lack of handler input is key here. Once you watch this play out a few times and see the light bulb come on, you'll be amazed at how fast your dog will be begin to learn. This type of learning system can be carried over to obedience, control work and even into bite work.

    Good luck and have fun!!!!
     
    CorpsTundra[OP] likes this.
  4. Nov 18, 2021 at 9:21 PM
    #34
    Arminius

    Arminius New Member

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    I would slow them down and save them from getting arthritis sooner. My GSD was a hard charger all the way till about 7 years old before he stated getting arthritis. I first noticed it in his left elbow. It’s like the bone was thicker. I didn’t let him overdo it after that and I stopped letting him jump down from the truck bed. I picked him up instead and set him down. I think it helped him live a more comfortable life over the next three years before he succumbed to a 14 month battle with cancer. It was the worst day of my life when died.

    BTW, he was on Cosequin every day since he was 8 weeks old. For sure it didn’t hurt.
     
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  5. Nov 18, 2021 at 10:17 PM
    #35
    a_double

    a_double New Member

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    I've heard Turmeric is good for aging dogs and curious on you all's thoughts. I have an aging Labrador Retriever that I want to take care of. I have her on Cosequin and fish oil. Feed her a combination of raw and kibble. Proin due to incontinence.

    Had her on a Vet prescribed anti-inflammatory and she had bouts of balance loss, which is a side effect. I didn't like seeing that and now looking at other ways to treat my dog.
     
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  6. Nov 20, 2021 at 4:44 AM
    #36
    Cody1060

    Cody1060 New Member

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    I have a Dutch Shephard, he's 8 years old. Yes, we've stopped playing frisbee because it's rough on his joints. Or, rather the landings are rough on his joints. He can jump 6' into the air. We noticed after a spirited play session his joints would pop when he laid down. He would also limp for a little while. So no more frisbee's. We still play lot's of fetch and reinforce his protection training on a very regular basis. That in itself is a good workout for both of us.
    Where did you get your Dutchies? We got ours in St. Johns.
    You have a couple of great looking Dutchies, good luck with them!

    20201105_070252_resized.jpg 20210206_094815_resized.jpg
     
  7. Nov 20, 2021 at 6:13 AM
    #37
    CorpsTundra

    CorpsTundra [OP] New Member

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    Both of them came from St. Johns. Your Dutchie is damn near identical to my boy. My boy is a Lothar-Jade pup and my girl is a Lothar-Cayenne pup.
     
  8. Nov 20, 2021 at 6:49 AM
    #38
    Arminius

    Arminius New Member

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    I also gave my GSD fish oil and turmeric. He was on fish oil most of his life but I didn't start giving him turmeric until he was 8. I would buy the turmeric pills at Costco, grind a couple of them into a powder using a mortar and pestle, and then mix it into his food.
     
  9. Nov 20, 2021 at 7:23 AM
    #39
    Arminius

    Arminius New Member

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    This is Diesel when he was 10, about 4 months before he passed. He really loved the snow and he loved swimming in rivers and lakes. :)

    8C8E55A5-4C59-4B2F-ADF4-F536AE61286F.jpg
    9BE1AC82-DB5B-4714-AD0D-0C5FE0322520.jpg
     
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  10. Jan 30, 2022 at 8:41 AM
    #40
    handyman

    handyman New Member

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    We lost our 140lb Great Pyrenees last year. He was active, still watching out for me, right up to the last week of his life. There were only hints/glimpses of a problem. Anyway, that last week, he uncharacteristically put his paw on my neck to let me know he was hurting and it was time to go. He soon after lost his ability to walk and we had to have him put to sleep. It was perhaps the saddest day of our lives. Nevertheless, we're still glad we let him live as free as possible right up to the end. Okay, enough of this story. I really do still miss him.
     
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  11. Oct 15, 2022 at 9:52 AM
    #41
    minh

    minh New Member

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    i gave my dog this the last 2-3 years of his life, would started earlier if i knew of it earlier
     
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  12. Oct 23, 2022 at 12:46 PM
    #42
    Arminius

    Arminius New Member

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    I had my GDS on it since he was a puppy and I really think it helped because even at 10, he did not have any hip problems. He only had some arthritis in his left elbow which started when he was 8, but it didn't really keep him from doing anything. I can't be sure if the Cosoquin helped prevent any joint problems, but it sure didn't hurt.
     
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  13. Oct 25, 2022 at 8:53 AM
    #43
    SD Surfer

    SD Surfer Globe Trotting Bon Vivant

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    Man there's some beautiful dogs in here!!

    That and all the talk about joint health, activity, recovery, etc. is making me really miss Riley. He went home at the end of May at 14 & 1/2, which is a pretty good run for 80 lbs. of Lab, Ridgeback, and Crackhead.
    He (like his human) never quite grasped the concepts of throttle or moderation, and as he got older had some nagging issues from running and jumping too hard... ACL type stuff, tears that he'd re-aggravate.

    He was on the Costco Cosequin, Fish Oil, Ligaplex (supplement for ligament health, Amazon) and CBD oil.

    He was the third of our fur babies who went to see a canine rehabilitation practitioner, for rehab after initial or re-aggravating injuries, and then for wellness/maintenance sessions.

    Swim therapy, underwater treadmill (great for mobility, range of motion, good long walk or trot but without bearing so much weight on the joints) massage, cold laser, acupressure, ultrasound pulse treatments.

    We were first referred to this woman when my wife's dog developed a bulging disc which put pressure on the nerves and KC lost the use and control of her hind legs. We had gotten her a doggy wheelchair.
    Through a series of the treatments mentioned above, dietary changes and some Chinese herbs, she got out of the wheelchair and was back to going on walks with us again for a few more good years till she got bloat one horrible night.

    I have no idea and I really don't want to know how much money we've spent on this stuff (it ain't cheap) but for the devotion, unconditional love, and laughter that our dogs so freely give us every day of their lives, it's a bargain.

    Even knucklehead dogs like Riley are pretty dang smart though, he started to instinctively know that certain things would hurt him... zoomies, jumping, etc. and began to take it easier on himself the last couple of years.
    Once in awhile he'd forget and get all frisky, and you could see him kinda' go "Oh shit, I forgot" :(

    IMG_0013.jpg


    IMG_0013.jpg 20180622_114430.jpg

    20180622_112338.jpg
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    Flying Riley.jpg
    moab.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2022
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  14. Dec 26, 2022 at 6:44 AM
    #44
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Young men never die.

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    I haven't read the whole thread but in my experience, good luck holding a dog back.

    Our dog is 6 so definitely not old by any stretch. However, he jumped off the couch strangely last week and hurt a muscle in his rear leg. Vet wants him to rest but even with giving him gabapentin twice a day, we can't convince him not to run and jump all over the place. (Of course, it doesn't help that I can't lift him right now.)
     
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  15. Dec 26, 2022 at 8:24 AM
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    TXBrit

    TXBrit New Member

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    IMG_0345.jpg A high quality support mattress benefits large breed dogs who are prone to joint problems as they age. There are lots on the market some better than others. I got my GSD one and he loves it
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2022
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