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INFO FOR FLEX FUEL HARD START/ALCOHOL DENSITY ISSUES OWNERS

Discussion in '2.5 Gen Tundras (2014-2021)' started by BTBAKER, Dec 31, 2021.

  1. Dec 31, 2021 at 1:09 PM
    #1
    BTBAKER

    BTBAKER [OP] DIFFERENT NAME. SAME JUNK.

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    I took my truck in for the second time in 52,000 miles for hard starts and lower fuel economy. The first time a flash of the ECM and setting the density back to normal fixed the issue. I figured the same was happening this time.

    The alcohol density percentage was jacked again. But, they also told me I need to have my fuel pump replaced and that would apparently fix the issue. There is a TSB for 2019 plus. They are changing mine under some emissions act that runs for 8 years or 96,000 miles. They never mentioned this to me the first time. Toyota probably has told them if the issue persists they will cover a new pump. The advisor said Toyota has no answer to make this permanently go away other than replacing the pump. They ordered one and will call when in.

    The tech also told me to always remove the key from ignition when fueling. I guess with key in the computers are active and when putting in fuel it can confuse the ECM. I guess I’ll try to remember that.

    Anyway, for those with the hard start issues, talk to your advisor and ask about getting the pump replaced. It will hopefully solve the hard start issue.
     
    RPO 579C, Ohannon7 and Skew12 like this.
  2. Jan 14, 2022 at 6:19 PM
    #2
    BTBAKER

    BTBAKER [OP] DIFFERENT NAME. SAME JUNK.

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    My fuel pump finally gave up. For those with flex fuel trucks know that the ECM sends incorrect fuel/air ratios to the pump. This causes hard starts and eventually a burned up fuel pump.
    The biggest issue is that TOYOTA has no answer for the ECM issue. Basically, it’s gonna happen again.
    I’m really down in Toyota right now. I now have a truck that will eventually eat another fuel pump and possibly stall the engine when driving.
    FYI for you hard start Toyota owners.
     
    Skew12 likes this.
  3. Jan 14, 2022 at 6:23 PM
    #3
    BTBAKER

    BTBAKER [OP] DIFFERENT NAME. SAME JUNK.

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  4. Jan 14, 2022 at 6:28 PM
    #4
    TRDProLife

    TRDProLife LETS GO BLUES

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    Happened to me too. The first time they flashed the ECM.
    The second time fuel pump.
    Always happened in the winter. Not sure if that's just a coincidence or not.
     
    BTBAKER[OP] likes this.
  5. Jan 14, 2022 at 6:38 PM
    #5
    BTBAKER

    BTBAKER [OP] DIFFERENT NAME. SAME JUNK.

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    Same. Has it been good since?
     
  6. Jan 14, 2022 at 6:39 PM
    #6
    BTBAKER

    BTBAKER [OP] DIFFERENT NAME. SAME JUNK.

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    It pisses me off that they can’t even find a solution.
     
  7. Jan 14, 2022 at 6:52 PM
    #7
    TRDProLife

    TRDProLife LETS GO BLUES

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    It's been good so far. But it hasn't even been a year. So crossing fingers. I didn't know it was a common problem. I thought it was just a fluke.
     
  8. Jan 14, 2022 at 6:53 PM
    #8
    TRDProLife

    TRDProLife LETS GO BLUES

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    Window Tint, ICI Magnum Steps, firestone spring helpers for towing, 295/70R18 Atturo Trsil blade X/T's
    Now I'm wondering if a tuner of some sort will help?
     
    BTBAKER[OP] likes this.
  9. Jan 14, 2022 at 8:27 PM
    #9
    texmln

    texmln New Member

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    They won't be spending any time looking for a solution. They've moved on. They will be occupied 100% of the time going forward solving turbo problems. In a few years they'll be responding to both turbo problems and a flood of complaints from customers who want to know why their turbo truck engines only last half as long as NA versions.
     
    Skew12 likes this.
  10. Jan 14, 2022 at 10:18 PM
    #10
    BTBAKER

    BTBAKER [OP] DIFFERENT NAME. SAME JUNK.

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    I don’t know but if it does I’m in.
     
  11. Jan 15, 2022 at 10:16 AM
    #11
    Toney198

    Toney198 New Member

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    Thanks to this forum I was made aware of this TSB, I just purchased my truck and the first time it was cold, it took 3 cycles to start, thought someone had got one over on me. Took it to the local dealer, they claimed it showed to have done at the factory so it could not be preformed. I asked them how exactly it was done at the factory when the TSB came out years after my truck was made. They ended up waiving the 150 to reset it and its back to normal for now. I was also getting on average 13.5 MPG, maybe this will help as well, I have not put a full tank through it since the fix.
     
    Skew12 and BTBAKER[OP] like this.
  12. Jan 15, 2022 at 10:30 AM
    #12
    BTBAKER

    BTBAKER [OP] DIFFERENT NAME. SAME JUNK.

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    Keep records. The general direction this will go is they reset the ECM fuel ratio the first time. It will help for a while. But, it will more than likely come back and at that point it’s a new pump. Good luck.
     
    Skew12 likes this.
  13. Nov 27, 2023 at 8:05 PM
    #13
    Sskafar

    Sskafar New Member

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    I have the same issue going on with my 2012 tundra. I confirmed it only does it when the gas station switches to their winter blend fuel. The starting issue goes away in the spring when they revert back to the summer blend of fuel mixture. The dealer wanted $1600 for the new fuel pump but I couldn’t afford to cough up that kind of cash. It didn't seem like they would just flash it to reset it without doing the pump as well. Anyone come up with a work around?
     
  14. Nov 27, 2023 at 8:45 PM
    #14
    AZBoatHauler

    AZBoatHauler SSEM#140/ASCM#3/2ndGenNaysayer/BAF140

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    Demello / SOB Fab Bumpers, SuperWinch, WKOR sliders, RCI skids, Baja Designs lighting, Billy 6112 and 5160 w/ CB +2, JL Audio with Alpine HU, DD 10" Exhaust, LED headlights, Rago fab mounts, 35” BFG, HAM radio
    Find someone with Techstream that will reset your fuel trim setting.
     
  15. Feb 7, 2024 at 3:27 PM
    #15
    Midsouth Jacket

    Midsouth Jacket New Member

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    FWIW I had experienced this issue off and on over the last 2 years or so. I have a 2015 SR5 Crewmax 5.7L V8 Flex Fuel.

    • Issue started around 160,000 miles in August 2021. I put up with it for a little while then I took it to the Toyota dealership the first time to see what they could identify. They could not figure it out, ended up replacing the battery and that seemed to work. Issue happened again at the end of 2021. This time I took it to a shop that specialized in Japanese cars. They could not figure it out either. Replaced battery. That seemed to work.
    • Over the last couple years the issue would show up at random times whenever it felt like it, but it seemed most often it was on cold mornings. But it also started happening when the truck would sit for the morning and then I'd crank it up to run out and get lunch around noon. Could go weeks or months without doing it, but would eventually show back up.
    • I have played with the fuel I was putting in my truck and for the most part the issue seemed to go away when I used non-ethanol or premium grade gas (as opposed to 87).
    • All this time I have been reading the forums and stumbled upon the Technical Service bulletin T-SB-0166-19 that many have referenced. I studied that and decided to purchase a cheap bluetooth diagnostic reader (Veepak) off Amazon to see what it could tell me. I plugged it up when the issue had returned in middle of 2023 and the alcohol density read 72%. It shouldnt be above 10%. So, now I knew I had most of the symptoms of the issue addressed in the technical bulletin, but was not sure if I would get a dismissive dealership/service mgr if I showed up and they couldnt re-produce the issue in their shop.
    • Fast forward to December 2023, hard cranks crept back with the cold weather, but this time after a few long/hard cranks my truck threw a check engine light. Plugged up my bluetooth reader and it showed codes P1604 which is one of the codes referenced on the Bulletin. It also threw code P0456 which is a small leak in gas line which is caused by a faulty gas cap. Now I had 3 points of proof: (1) hard cranks over 50,000 miles (I had started recording them on my iphone as proof, (2) alcohol density reading off the charts and (3) check engine code P1604. So I decided to take it to the dealership and present my case. I was way past the 80,000 mile mark at which they would cover the work for free, so I was hoping to find a good shop that would (a) believe what I was telling them and (b) would be familiar with this issue. I found both.

    First thing out of the service manager's mouth after they cranked it in the morning was that his Master Tech was "very" familiar with this issue. Knew exactly what to do and had never had one come back on him after doing what he proposed. Instead of performing all the steps in the Bulletin, what he proposed was re-calibrating the alcohol sensors and replacing my gas cap (for the other code). Not sure if recalib the alcohol sensors is what people on here are referring to as "flashing" the ECM but that's what they did. Charged me $212 total out the door which if this fix works is well worth it. And so far, it has worked. Truck cranks like it's new even though it has 210,000 miles. Only been a couple weeks, but I am hopeful I can keep driving this truck for another 200,000 miles.

    For anyone near Alabama, I used McKinnon Toyota in Clanton, AL. This was a different dealership than the one I used previously in Montgomery. Shan was the service mgr I worked with. He was a Toyota/Lexus mechanic himself for 30 years before his shoulders and back gave out. Starting writing service after that. They were great to work with.

    Morals of the story (1) know your stuff (2) buy a bluetooth diagnostic tool (3) read the bulletin (4) find a good shop

    Just wanted to thank everyone on here for sharing the good info over the years. This has been a frustrating issue for me, but I am hopeful this will take care of it. I know many have said the issue crept back in a few thousand miles/months later. I will update if that occurs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2024
    RPO 579C and Skew12 like this.
  16. Feb 8, 2024 at 5:55 AM
    #16
    Bradleybb

    Bradleybb New Member

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    Transmission cooler TRD REAR SWAY RCI front skid
    Purchased 2017 DC flex f few months back, 60k on it checked fuel alcohol 13% ,
    Cranked fine , knew about the fuel pump tsb , so took it Toyota I have a friend that’s a service
    Advisor ,he ran the national service history on it never been in for any FF related issues ,
    One of his master tech has a 2011 FF ten years owner never a alcohol problem never runs 85%
    He has always used BG44K fuel additive and BG alcohol dryer additive once a year , highly recommends it,
    my friend went ahead and got my fuel pump replaced under the tsb warranty, I’ve read lot of issues
    On here with ff and different preventative routines ,maybe the fuel additives will be a good preventative maintenance routine,
    I’ll add it to my maintenance and hope no future issues.
     
  17. Feb 8, 2024 at 6:05 AM
    #17
    Totmacher

    Totmacher New Member

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    Some
  18. Feb 8, 2024 at 6:08 AM
    #18
    Totmacher

    Totmacher New Member

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    I've wondered if there is actually a problem of running rich all the time when the alcohol % and fuel trims get really high which over works fuel system. Then we see symptoms mostly in the cold because air density change just happens to hit some AFR critical point or maybe it's just "winter gas" more susceptible. Just guessing at possibilities about relation to cold weather.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2024
  19. Mar 24, 2024 at 5:44 AM
    #19
    Tundra1194

    Tundra1194 New Member

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    My 2017 Tundra hasn't had any FF codes yet. But since I found out that my VIN is on the TB list, I'm afraid to tow my camper to distant locations. I've read postings of Tundras being at dealerships for months awaiting replacement fuel pumps. Planning a trip through Canada to Alaska and back but now I'm kinda rethinking it. Unimaginable to consider the problems with a fuel pump failure in the Canadian wilderness!

    Having been a Toyota loyalists for decades, I'm coming to question their quality. Too bad they aren't concerned about their reputation.

    Midsouth Jacket, which Veepeak did you use, and which Android app?
     
  20. Mar 24, 2024 at 5:49 AM
    #20
    kbahus

    kbahus New Member

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    Buy a Toyota specific scan tool and reset the fuel trims on your own when needed. You will then have a scan tool with functionality for Toyota and other vehicles via global obd2. You will also be able to deal with TPMS issues on your own as well and reset other values if you are a DIY person. It seems the alcohol density is calculated via the wideband 02 sensor readings, maybe replace your O2 sensors if you are really worried about it. The tool will pay for itself the first time you don't have to go to the dealer.
     
    AZBoatHauler and Ebrperk like this.
  21. Mar 24, 2024 at 6:06 AM
    #21
    Tundra1194

    Tundra1194 New Member

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    Thanks kbahus. What's your preference for a Toyota specific scan tool?
     
  22. Mar 24, 2024 at 6:17 AM
    #22
    kbahus

    kbahus New Member

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    AZBoatHauler likes this.
  23. Mar 24, 2024 at 6:38 AM
    #23
    Tundra1194

    Tundra1194 New Member

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    I bought a Launch December 2023 through Amazon. Turns out it is made for non-USA vehicles, which I just found out last night. So, before you buy, some homework will be a good effort. A waste of $407 for me. I reached out this morning to a company rep in hopes he can make it good. If not, I'm hesitant to give them any more of my money.

    I'm considering BlueDriver Bluetooth Pro or Innova 5610 BiDirectional Scan Tool. Anyone have a preference?

    https://www.amazon.com/BlueDriver-B...9&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07Z...&pd_rd_r=0d1bdb09-2208-4582-951c-38232dc64238
     

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