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What's so special about the new Hybrid system?

Discussion in '3rd Gen Tundras (2022+)' started by kdehkordi, Sep 23, 2021.

  1. Sep 23, 2021 at 12:56 PM
    #1
    kdehkordi

    kdehkordi [OP] New Member

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    I learned that the 2022 Tundra will have a different Hybrid system than the Prius. That the electric motor is sandwiched between the engine and transmission (correct me if I'm wrong) and that is somehow different than the Prius.

    My Q is

    1. How is it different?
    2. What are the pro's and cons to each system?
    3. Is this new system in the 2021 Sienna as well? Or does this system make sense in a truck and NOT in a minivan?

    Thx
     
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  2. Sep 23, 2021 at 1:14 PM
    #2
    Trogdog

    Trogdog New Member

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    Your standard run of the mill hybrid, like a Prius, has a complex transmission that has two separate inputs a gas engine and an electric motor.
    Dual inputs has all kinds of fancy engineering to make it the most efficient possible and is only usable for hybrid cars. The stacked tundra system can use the same transmission for hybrid/non-hybrid models. If I understand it correctly the primary benefit of this configuration in the new tundra is to even out the torque curve and to provide torque quickly before the turbos spin up.
    I don't know about the new Sienna but I suspect the mini van would use the most fuel efficient design and the truck would use the best power/torque design which still increased mpg just not as much as a "standard" hybrid transmission.
     
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  3. Sep 23, 2021 at 1:28 PM
    #3
    mountainpete

    mountainpete Explore more

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    Function before sparkle.
    The design and location of the electric motor and it's clutch means that the activation is virtually instantaneous. In practical terms, it could change the way auto start stop works (no more starter engaging but instant power instead), plus as @Trogdog mentions a torque curve that will be more even. It could be described as feeling more diesel-like but that will only be clear once we get to drive it. (peak torque is at 2400 rpm)

    Although it can run as an EV, the design of the system isn't focused on range or speed. It can only run EV mode at less than 29 kph. It's more designed around supplementing additional power to the gas engine. If it was about range it would have a bigger and different battery system.

    Plus: No CVT like the Prius.

    From the press release:

     
  4. Sep 23, 2021 at 5:52 PM
    #4
    BrakeDust

    BrakeDust New Member

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    Prediction: The hybrid will provide diesel-like performance for everyday driving and for towing on flat or moderate hills/valleys. The system will recharge on every downhill section. However it will quickly become dead weight in all those "hill climb" torture tests where they haul a max weight trailer up a long grade. The hybrid battery will soon be exhausted and then you'll be running with the regular turbo engine the rest of the way. It will be beat in those tests by any truck with a regular engine.

    Still I'd totally get the hybrid option for myself. I don't do hill climbs here in central TX.
     
  5. Sep 23, 2021 at 6:22 PM
    #5
    Saltyhero13

    Saltyhero13 Throbbing Member

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    Your question was adequately and accurately answered by the comments above.

    To simplify, in the Prius you electric motor is what propels the car, the gas engine is very efficient and is more of a generator to charge up your batteries than for use as propulsion.

    In the Tundra its a parallel hybrid system and both motors can be actively propelling the car at the same time; they can also act independently. From what has been discussed the electric motor will play a role in the lower RPM band while the twin turbos are spooling up.
     
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  6. Sep 23, 2021 at 6:23 PM
    #6
    Jchetty

    Jchetty New Member

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    The I-Force Max hybrid is a bell-house motor system that seem to retain the torque converter for torque multiplication. So I guess they would use an electro-magnetic torque converter as opposed to a hydraulic unit. Either way- light years over CVT which are a maintenance headache.
     
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  7. Sep 23, 2021 at 8:40 PM
    #7
    craigy

    craigy New Member

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    The placement is for performance rather than efficiency.

    Similar to a Mac P1 for example, the e-motor is connected to the crank.

    I think the new F150 powerboost is also like this.
     
  8. Sep 24, 2021 at 12:29 PM
    #8
    MTRock

    MTRock 1889

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    Here is the traditional Toyota Hybrid eCVT Prius, RAV4, Highlander, Camry, and Sienna, rock solid and virtually maintenance free..no clutch or belt. Kinda a long video but reveals the simplicity and genus of Toyota’s CVT
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM

    The new Tundra is a different approach and I am kinda concerned..about Toyota’s “clutch” that will engage the MGR..?? I have little doubt Toyota tested it thoroughly, but this new approach could be a weak point??

    Many Tractors have a similar planetary 2 speed CVT that is hydraulically driven, I think Toyota’s eCVT could be scaled up? And honestly was kinda hoping Toyota would have built a big beefy hi/low range eCVT for the Tundra..but I’m sure it would have been very costly? And probably a tough sale for customers?
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
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  9. Sep 24, 2021 at 12:31 PM
    #9
    Tumbler

    Tumbler New Member

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    In all the other hybrids (at least Toyota ones) the motor for the drive system is integrated with the transmission as one unit. If it is AWD/4WD like in a Highlander or Venza the rear wheels are driven by a separate motor housed in the rear suspension where a differential would be. For the Tundra it seems there is only one motor regardless of drive configuration squeezed between the conventional engine and the traditional transmission leaving the balance of the drivetrain and management of it the same as a conventional system. Of course the latter is an assumption until full details can be seen but that is how it sounds.
     
  10. Sep 24, 2021 at 12:41 PM
    #10
    JuicyJ

    JuicyJ New Member

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    Don't be surprised if the Tundra hybrid system is automatically disabled when towing, as is the case with the F-150 PB.
    These small battery packs really aren't up to the task of long, heavy discharge that would essentially completely deplete 1.8kW in one or two accelerations when towing.
     
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  11. Sep 24, 2021 at 2:43 PM
    #11
    Larly5000

    Larly5000 Local Scumbag

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    True …but what “regular” engine is gonna out do the new iforce uphill at altitude? Even the base one has damn near 500ft lbs at 2400rpm.

    Hemi isnt, neither GM motor(although the 6.2 will probably hang in there) and the old 5.7 Tundra mill sure as hell wont either.

    I know everyone is caught up in the lack of tow hooks and underseat storage(really important deal killers:rolleyes:) but this new drivetrain is gonna be an animal during tests like TFL’s Ike.
     
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  12. Sep 25, 2021 at 10:24 AM
    #12
    Acedude

    Acedude New Member

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    From a post above, the Press Release:

    "The i-FORCE MAX powertrain is designed to provide maximum performance and maximum efficiency at every extreme. During towing applications, the hybrid system provides additional power and torque. In city driving, it offers a quiet ride with improved efficiency while in low-speed EV mode. On the highway, responsive linear power delivery is the name of the game, and off-road driving is further enhanced thanks to peak torque performance being achieved low in the RPM range.

    A newly developed Power Control Unit (PCU) is used to achieve excellent battery durability and thermal performance with a focus on drive performance. The system employs a tried-and-true 288V sealed Nickel-metal Hydride (Ni-MH) battery that resides under the rear passenger seats.

    Using the SPORT or SPORT+ settings under Drive Mode Select, i-FORCE MAX makes use of the electric motor’s instantaneous responsiveness. Although the electric motor does the bulk of the work at lower speeds, once above 29 km/h, the gasoline engine is constantly in operation for excellent performance in the mid- and high-speed range. When in TOW/HAUL mode, the i-FORCE MAX system is constantly in operation to provide impressive acceleration and torque for towing needs."

    I can't imagine a hybrid system that isn't constantly recharged while the engine is running. Which brings up a question - will the hybrid have an HO alternator to provide additional amperage for hybrid battery charging?
     
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  13. Sep 25, 2021 at 10:44 AM
    #13
    JuicyJ

    JuicyJ New Member

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    The pancake motor supplies the HV charging of the hybrid pack.

    Alternator charges at 14.4v for the traditional 12v systems.

    However, it's to be seen if the Max even uses an alternator
     
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  14. Sep 25, 2021 at 11:15 AM
    #14
    Jchetty

    Jchetty New Member

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    If that works as designed, I don’t see any problems with turbos going 150k miles. That should really help the mpg whiles towing. Man I am really interested to learn more- very cool idea.
     
  15. Sep 25, 2021 at 11:35 AM
    #15
    Acedude

    Acedude New Member

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    Man, I need to get educated on hybrid systems. Googled pancake motor, maybe you can expand. Are you saying there is a pancake motor combined with the hybrid electric drive motor, and they spin at the same time, they're physically hooked together? The pancake spinning creates the amperage needed to recharge the battery pack?

    EDIT: I did more Googling, found good ol' Wikipedia and maybe this hybrid with a 10-spd auto, not CVT, uses a
    Power-split or series-parallel hybrid Hybrid vehicle drivetrain - Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  16. Sep 25, 2021 at 12:12 PM
    #16
    Saltyhero13

    Saltyhero13 Throbbing Member

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    There are several types of hybrid configurations, this one is a little unconventional when compared to the typical hybrids you see on the road (talking Prius and comparable models).

    There are only two motors in the upcoming model. One is the ICE 3.5 TTV6 and the other is the electric "pancake motor" that will sit between the V6 and the torque converter. The motors can work in conjunction with each other or independently one at a time; gas only or electric only. In dual motor mode or electric only the pancake motor has the ability to propel the vehicle when power runs through the motor. In situations where the assistance of the electric motor isn't needed the motor can be cycled (spun) and would act like a generator to charge up the batteries.

    I haven't seen Toyota mention anything about regenerative breaking but that is another strategy used to replenish battery power in hybrid systems
     
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  17. Sep 25, 2021 at 1:04 PM
    #17
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    A test like the Ike Gauntlet that TFL Truck conducts starts at Dillon, CO at 9,111ft above sea level, and ends even higher at 11,158ft.

    The only contenders in the 1/2 ton segment for top performance on that test are all turbocharged. So that will be: the Ford 3.5L EcoBoost, the Ford 3.5L PowerBoost, the Toyota 3.5L iForce TTV6, and the Toyota 3.5L iForce Max all the other turbo offerings such as the smaller 2.7L V6 Ford EcoBoost and the GM 2.7L I-4 are just down too much on horsepower to compete with the 3.5L turbo mills. Same story for all of the 3.0L turbodiesels on that test, just not enough horsepower output to maintain a high average speed up the hill. We can exclude the Ford Raptor and Ram TRX from direct comparison due to their relatively modest towing and payload on account of their different mission in life.

    The naturally aspirated 1/2 tons are at an enormous disadvantage on a test like this, at least on the uphill run due to a big penalty in power output at altitude. The calculation is pretty simple: for every 1,000ft of altitude above sea level a naturally aspirated engine has 3% less air density to work with and will lose 3% of it's power. So at the start of the Ike Gauntlet at Dillon, CO any of the naturally aspirated engines are down 27% from their rated horsepower and torque, by the end of the run they're down 33%. Meanwhile their forced induction competitors with electronically controlled turbos capable of making more boost at sea level than the ECU will allow, hence the integrated waste gates, will most likely be making pretty damn close to full rated power and torque even up at 11,000ft.

    Our beloved 5.7L 3UR-FE starts that run with enough air to make 278hp, and 293lb-ft of torque; by the time it hits the top of the climb at wide open throttle it will make 255hp if it can manage to reach 5600RPM with a load on and peak torque will be down to 269lb-ft. So even without a depleted hybrid battery on board and electric motor that add say 250lbs of "dead weight" that new iForceMax running on the 3.5L twin turbo alone, that is still making over 90% of it's rated power and torque is going to destroy a naturally aspirated V8 in any of the current 1/2 tons. Even the mighty GM 6.2L isn't a happy camper up there, it's only making 307hp, and 335.8lb-ft at the start; and 281hp, and 308lb-ft at the top.

    The other non hybrid turbo mills might have an advantage in power to weight ratio once the battery pack is depleted on a long uphill climb, but I'm not sure that an extra 250lbs (estimate it could be more) is going to make or break the average speed up the grade if a guy or gal is towing an appropriate load with their 1/2 ton pickup. If you find yourself sweating 250lbs here or there on towing you just need to move up to a bigger truck and get your margin of error back.

    Downhill performance of the hybrid should be markedly better than the non hybrid models, even the V8's, if regenerative braking is utilized because it will act as additional engine braking. I utilize this every day at work as a RR engineer via the dynamic braking on locomotives, although there are a few observations I can make regarding the effectiveness of electrical resistance braking through an electric traction motor. First of all the way my equipment is set up the dynamic braking effect is more powerful at lower speeds, just as the electric motors are capable of higher tractive effort at lower speeds. So we may see that regenerative braking on a hybrid has a "sweet spot" for being really effective at supplementing the downhill control of a loaded truck or a truck towing a heavy trailer, with reduced effectiveness outside of that speed range. The upshot is even if this is the case an application of your normal brakes and trailer brakes to put you into that sweet spot can save a lot of further brake applications if the regenerative braking/dynamic braking are powerful enough to control vehicle speed. Even in cases where the regenerative braking doesn't provide enough retardation by itself to prevent acceleration your need to use higher brake pressure will be reduced, and the frequency of applications will be reduced. I know big power to climb hills loaded is more exciting than braking performance and control of a load when descending a grade, but that added safety margin is a big deal and big potential benefit for a hybrid should it be capable of assisting in that manner.
     
  18. Sep 25, 2021 at 2:03 PM
    #18
    FO LO

    FO LO New Member

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    Great write up. I'd be interested in seeing a cost/benefit comparison spreadsheet on the iForce vs iForce Max:D
     
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  19. Sep 25, 2021 at 2:08 PM
    #19
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    We will have to see more numbers both performance and operating costs.

    I am cautiously optimistic, if the iForceMax isn’t a big up charge I think it will be a good deal.
     
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  20. Sep 25, 2021 at 2:22 PM
    #20
    stevj

    stevj New Member

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    I wonder if that iForce electric motor is used for stop/start so we can have butter-smooth engine restarts.
    My current pickup (Ram 1500) uses the alternator as a motor to restart using the serpentine belt. Utterly silent restarts.

    Steve
     
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  21. Sep 25, 2021 at 2:36 PM
    #21
    FO LO

    FO LO New Member

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    Aside from dollars saved on gas and such I need to see other upside/downside on the two powerplants. I want to just do it for the torque and gas but there more to it that I need to see in a spreadsheet
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  22. Sep 25, 2021 at 3:14 PM
    #22
    mountainpete

    mountainpete Explore more

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    Function before sparkle.
    Yes and it should be almost instantaneous.
     
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  23. Sep 25, 2021 at 8:14 PM
    #23
    Jchetty

    Jchetty New Member

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    You are also getting rid of the traditional trans so you will be saving on maintenance there too. I think the the real possible savings is wear and tear on the turbos.
     
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  24. Nov 15, 2021 at 8:38 PM
    #24
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    Uhhh no dude, the iForceMax still has a 10 speed transmission with a torque converter.
     
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  25. Nov 16, 2021 at 7:09 AM
    #25
    Breathing Borla

    Breathing Borla I'd rather be fishing

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    :monocle: lol. I was scratching my head on that one too
     

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