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Bump Steer/ Nightmare Truck (Solved)

Discussion in 'Suspension' started by throughitalldude, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. Jan 13, 2020 at 11:14 AM
    #1
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    **CHANGED TITLED FOR HOW LONG IT TOOK TO FIND THE ACTUAL SOLUTIONS**

    Hey Everyone,

    I need some guidance I installed a Maxtrac 3.5" Spindle lift (stock Suspension/ Coilovers) on my truck and got new tires and and a alignment immediately after. My first alignment was done and the steering wheel was sensitive to the road anything I hit in the road the wheel reacted. Had them fix the alignment to add more caster and it fixed the responsive wheel issue. Then the Outer edge of my tires started to wear so I abandoned that alignment shop went somewhere more reputable and they dialed my alignment in and got my caster 2ºDS / 2.5ºPS and 0º Camber & Toe. Steering wheel is now sensitive to the road again nothing crazy but I feel movement based on the roughness of the road Im on. Shop claims my caster is maxed out ( IS THIS TRUE?) I question it because the 1st shop got above 3º before but I'm sure they sacrificed camber to get there thus the outer edge wear. Tires are balanced, the alignment is good (have rotated to see if any change and it stayed the same) and truck tracks great. Does anyone have any direction on where I should go next. I replaced the tie rod ends with CB ends and it helped but did not get rid of it.

    I am exhausted trying to figure this out. I am being told it could be:

    -Wheels are out of round (but they balance fine)
    -Stock Suspension is too soft
    -Brake Rotors are warped (but no vibration when braking)
    -Truck needs more caster
    -Truck is higher in the front and could be the cause
    -Steering Rack going out (24K Mile on truck)
    -This is normal for toyota trucks

    Note it is worse at highway speeds......
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
  2. Jan 13, 2020 at 12:33 PM
    #2
    cook2kill

    cook2kill PNW

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    Upgraded Tie Rod Ends can help to eliminate bump steer especially in lifted applications and with bigger tires. Coachbuilder makes a great set and @Coachbuilder1 can provide some greater insight.
     
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  3. Jan 13, 2020 at 12:36 PM
    #3
    Danman34

    Danman34 New Member

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    Spindle lift doesn’t change your alignment ability at all. All you did was lower the front hub position. Nothing else changed. You don’t need CB tie rod ends. Shop is full of shit.

    Where is your alignment sheet? No such thing as 0* toe. Too much toe will cause outer feathering
     
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  4. Jan 13, 2020 at 12:55 PM
    #4
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    Exactly what I have told three different shops now and they all look at me cross eyed. Here are my print outs. As you can see my truck has had caster up above 4º but they are all telling me to get more then 2.5º I will ruin my camber.

    This is my first Alignment Result: Steering Extremely sensitive to the road
    Messages Image(2308188949).jpg
    2nd Alignment Result: Not sensitive to road but started to wear tires unevenly.
    IMG_6149.jpg
    3rd Alignment Result: Tracks well feels great but sensitive to road. (Readout is in Inches not degrees)
    IMG_6386.jpg

    Most recent shop I went to said my toe was 1/4" toe in and said that he felt that was the issue and said they got it to 0...... He wrote down these numbers cause they do it by hand and gauges
    Toe:
    2ºDS | 2.5ºPS
    Camber:
    0ºDS | 0ºPS
    Toe:
    0ºDS | 0ºPS

    I called back telling him I wanted the most caster possible and he stated I believe your maxed out. The steering feels like it wants more positive caster but everyone I talk to acts like this truck will not get any better of a alignment then where its at.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  5. Jan 13, 2020 at 1:03 PM
    #5
    Danman34

    Danman34 New Member

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    I’m guessing -1/4 camber is 0.25?
    1/16 toe in? So 0.06?

    I do see total toe at some point was 0.40. That is way to high and will account for the outer wear. Total toe should be less than or equal too 0.15.


    never seen a sheet like that lol. But either way, you should be able to get a perfect alignment with the lift spindle.


    What kind of shops are these? Chain stores with low skilled techs or specialty mechanic shops?
     
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  6. Jan 13, 2020 at 1:03 PM
    #6
    joonbug

    joonbug °°°°°°°°°°

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    need more caster
     
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  7. Jan 13, 2020 at 1:06 PM
    #7
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    These are more specialty shops that focus on alignments (aint that a kick in the head) ...... The two most recent shops the alignments were done by hand not laser and they state all the laser shops are going by spec and that isnt enough to dial it in. I was pretty worried when I walked out of the last shop and he said your zeros across your toe and camber I was like is that even possible?
     
  8. Jan 13, 2020 at 1:08 PM
    #8
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    Thats exactly what I told every shop and only one of them is willing to try to achieve it :confused:
     
  9. Jan 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM
    #9
    joonbug

    joonbug °°°°°°°°°°

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    It's probably maxed out. What UCA's you have?
     
  10. Jan 13, 2020 at 1:47 PM
    #10
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    Stock UCAs but I have a spindle lift...... my truck suspension wise is completely stock. Its not like a suspension lift so everything stays factory, the angles on a stock tundra and my truck are identical. I wouldve thought they could get more out of the caster but they are saying otherwise.
     
  11. Jan 13, 2020 at 4:32 PM
    #11
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    Here’s my rear cams not sure if they tell if they are maxed
    Driver side
    A73E34B8-38B1-40F0-AB61-F62959D9FEE0.jpg
    Passenger side
    1FA6F124-08F2-457C-BC13-2A58CE3CCCA4.jpg
     
  12. Jan 13, 2020 at 5:00 PM
    #12
    DM 2018 Tundra

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  13. Jan 13, 2020 at 5:06 PM
    #13
    Berdine

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    When you installed the lift, did you put it on the ground then torque all your bolts, or do then while off the ground and drooping?

    Also, check air pressure, I had same issues with mine, every bump I hit was harsh. They had my tires over 60psi, I dropped them to 35psi, made huge difference
     
  14. Jan 13, 2020 at 5:30 PM
    #14
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    I torqued everything in the air then a month later torqued everything on the ground. For a while my tires were at 33 and it got worse then aired them up to 42 and it was way better. I’m just flat out stumped.
     
  15. Jan 13, 2020 at 5:31 PM
    #15
    DM 2018 Tundra

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    I do know man that if your rims off center will make it act that way. Also sent you a PM
     
  16. Jan 14, 2020 at 4:41 PM
    #16
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    So went and did a wheel swap today with stock 18” steel wheels and tires and wouldn’t you know it shaking steering wheel was gone. So here’s where I’m still left questioning did it reduce steering shake because of the stock offset and back spacing or was it because it was a 18” wheel in comparison to a 20” wheel. My tires are a 65 series sidewalk so they definitely are not low profile by any means. I wondered if I got a TSS 20” wheel would the stock offset fix the issue.



    Basically my wheel and tire setup paired with my lift is a recipe steering shake. I think that the spindle pushing my wheels out plus the offset and backspacing of my aftermarket wheels are making my steering sensitive.
     
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  17. Jan 14, 2020 at 5:07 PM
    #17
    DM 2018 Tundra

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    So you had 18 then went to 20?
     
  18. Jan 14, 2020 at 5:42 PM
    #18
    Danman34

    Danman34 New Member

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    Never heard of that with aftermarket wheels and tires. The majority of tundras are lifted with lower offset wheels and bigger tires and they drive perfectly fine, including mine.

    What was your wheel and tire setup?
     
  19. Jan 14, 2020 at 5:51 PM
    #19
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    So my spindles push my wheels out an inch on each side to start..... then my wheels are +20 so all in all I am like -1 and my tires are narrow as well. I have 275x65x20 I was pretty shocked myself but it drove like my 2013 tundra did and that’s what I have been chasing.
     
  20. Jan 14, 2020 at 5:56 PM
    #20
    DM 2018 Tundra

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    Hey man glad you got worked out!! But that is crazy I never heard that but every truck drives different.
     
  21. Jan 21, 2020 at 9:03 PM
    #21
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    Officially fixed my issue by picking up these bad boys :) problem was all related to offset and scrub radius. Having a tall narrow tire plus the spindle kick out on top of the aftermarket wheel offset the steering was feeling everything the tires did. Took the truck for a drive and it’s like a whole different truck.

    7007B065-C4BD-455D-951C-B6D759E03E0F.jpg
     
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  22. Jan 21, 2020 at 9:16 PM
    #22
    Hbjeff

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    Glad to see you figured it out! Ive had my truck nose up for a time, i have it level now. It definitely handled a little worse nose up, BUT in my case that may have been the increased a arm angles which you didn’t have

    Your truck is awesome looking and the tss wheels really fit those tires well.

    Ive been kicking around that spindle lift too, we shall see.
     
  23. Jan 21, 2020 at 9:43 PM
    #23
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    Thank you appreciate the compliments! A little bit bummed that if I would’ve went with the lower offset in the beginning I could’ve went with a larger tire but I do get great gas mileage so there’s a bright side to the tall narrow. Also having them tucked a little more under the truck makes them look a tad bigger. I can definitely say nothing compares to the spindle lift with stock shocks drives like a completely stock truck (now that the shake is gone hahaha). Even a Maxtrac engineer saw my truck and said I wasn’t much higher in the front to make a noticeable difference in handling. So I was glad to hear that. Just need some spacers for the rear cause they are tucked a little too far under the truck for my liking.
     
  24. Jan 22, 2020 at 7:43 AM
    #24
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    Heres a better shot of the new offset.

    Messages Image(490470671).jpg
     
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  25. Jan 22, 2020 at 5:51 PM
    #25
    DM 2018 Tundra

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    Man great looking truck!! Glad you got it rolling good!!! Still have not put mine on yet. Worried if I do it might go south lol.
     
  26. Jan 25, 2020 at 7:01 AM
    #26
    kralc8954

    kralc8954 New Member

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    What offset are you at now?
     
  27. Jan 27, 2020 at 8:04 AM
    #27
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    In the front +35 and the rear +28. Drove the truck more so there is still some bump steer and a little shake at 65 on certain roads but nothing absolutely crazy. It proves the heavy offset before was amplifying it where now its very subtle. I do know I need new rotors on the the truck and eventually I plan to swap the front shocks. I have the black Stock shocks so people have made a guess that those shocks could be my problem because they are so soft. When you add the weight of the spindle (these maxtrac are beefy) and the bigger tires its possible that shock is getting over worked. Wish I wouldve swapped to these TSS wheels in the beginning cause I wouldve been able to fit my 35's then I have tons of clearance now.
     
  28. Nov 2, 2020 at 8:12 AM
    #28
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    So I like to post positive findings as it may help someone else in the future who has similar issues.

    After switching tires to the KO2s truck drove really nice for a few months, steering still sensitive to bumps but I got use to it. But what bothered me was that I was taking the truck to have the tires rotated and balanced every 5K Miles and it seemed like it always felt unbalanced afterwards. I was having to go back and forth to the tire shop every visit. Finally discount tire called Michelin about my KO2s possibly being faulty and they replaced them with Cooper AT3 XLT. This made a HUGE difference as my highway shakes were completely gone. This is where things get interesting. I go to Les Shwab (big corporate which I usually avoid for mom and pop shops) for a alignment cause its always good to realign with new tires. When I go to pick the truck up the tech tells me that one of my adjustment tabs on the caster for the passenger side has been bent flat and is not able to be used to fully align the truck. He said get it fixed and come on back well realign it no charge. So this truck has been aligned 4-5 times due to all my prior issues and not one shop has told me that was damaged and the tech specifically stated you could not get this thing aligned correctly with it that way. Also another thing to note was the alignment read out before the service read my caster was in the low 1 degrees I was like uhhh theres my steering sensitivity right there. So now I'm pissed at all the previous shops I have worked with. The truck drove really nice but I wanted that fixed and to get it realigned so I did all that brought it back. They realigned it but it was a different tech this time and he didnt touch the side where the repair was for more caster. Got on the freeway and the steering wheel went nuts at 55. Figured it could be a one time thing but it happened a few more times. Extremely irritated that this truck cannot be aligned or have a rotation and balance without a MILLION trips back to these shops I went back and said I need them to look at it one more time and said I want the most caster without losing the camber. They kept the truck for 5 hours realign it completely and wouldnt you know it all the shakes, vibes and even the sensitivity to the bumps in the road is gone. All the alignment shops I went to prior to this, did alignments with gauges by hand. Les Shwab uses laser obviously and now I am convinced I will not go anywhere without one. I took the word of three different techs from two different shops that the truck was aligned properly and it was not. How it will stay is the unknown but for now I am extremely happy to have hunted down the causer of most of the trucks behavior. As they always say ALIGNMENT is everything especially with Toyotas as they are very picky and caster hungry. Wish I wouldve gotten a free alignment check earlier cause I wouldve seen the caster was way too low.
     
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  29. Feb 14, 2024 at 4:05 PM
    #29
    OCretribution

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    I hate to ask this so far after the fact, but what was your final alignment result that worked if you don’t mind me asking?
     
  30. Feb 14, 2024 at 7:54 PM
    #30
    throughitalldude

    throughitalldude [OP] New Member

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    Well I actually ended up throwing in the towel and traded my Tundra for a F150 Tremor. Even after doing frequent alignments, swamping steering rack bushings, UCAs, tie rod ends basically all steering components. I could never fully get rid of it. The truck was in and out of shops so often it was just becoming a nightmare for me. Happy with my 23 Tremor it was between that or a 24 Tundra and ultimately the way the Ford rode it edged out the Tundra for me.
     

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