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Motive Brake Bleeding

Discussion in '1st Gen Tundras (2000-2006)' started by remington351, Dec 14, 2019.

  1. Dec 14, 2019 at 10:57 PM
    #1
    remington351

    remington351 [OP] New Member

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    Hi all,
    I made an adapter in order to use my Motive brake bleeder. I'm sure others of you have already done this, but I thought a quick post to confirm it is possible might help some newbies. The adapter is 1/2 cpvc which has a nice tight interference fit into the cap. A little silicon sealant to make sure it's air tight.

    Rather than add brake fluid to the Motive tank, I use the Motive tank to air pressurize the master cylinder, flush the fluid, then refill the master cylinder for each wheel.

    When bleeding, I just placed the cap back on. I was ready with zip ties, duct tape, and rubber bands in case the cap popped off, but at 8psi is held fine. It took about 3-4 minutes to drain just below the min line to the rears, 2-3 minutes for the fronts. Once I opened the bleeder screw I would add about 5 more pumps to the motive tank. Pressure would drop from about 8 to 5 psi when completing each wheel.

    brake cap.jpg

    brake press.jpg
     
  2. Dec 15, 2019 at 4:40 AM
    #2
    Professional Hand Model

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    I like the idea as its very creative. What, may I ask is the benefit of bleeding out at each wheel and even the master cylinder over just doing a suck and fill at the reservoir?
     
  3. Dec 15, 2019 at 5:09 AM
    #3
    tvpierce

    tvpierce Formerly New Member

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    I have a Motive bleeder that I used when I had European cars with twist on reservoir caps. I've never tried it with my Toyotas -- nice job adapting it. Did you purchase a second cap to make your adapter?

    I use mine the same way -- just use it as a pressure source, not a fluid reservoir. It's much easier and less messy than putting brake fluid in the tank.

    Any impurities, including water laden brake fluid, will tend to settle in low spots... and the lowest spots in the system are the calipers at each wheel. If you don't flush at each wheel, you leave the worst of the fluid in the system and risk compromising a seal. A complete brake system flush every two years is standard maintenance for European cars. I think Toyota recommends the same.
     
  4. Dec 15, 2019 at 5:26 AM
    #4
    Professional Hand Model

    Professional Hand Model A.K.A ‘Golden Hands’

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    Got it. Now hear me out on this as I am learning this brake bleed stuff.

    Is the water not evenly dispersed in the brake fluid suspension as its hydrophilic? I am reading that you are saying the water separates in the lower lines and stays there.
     
  5. Dec 15, 2019 at 5:55 AM
    #5
    tvpierce

    tvpierce Formerly New Member

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    Good question. To be honest, I'm not sure. I've never really thought about this before, but as I mull it over in my head, here's one hypothosis:

    Certainly a molecule of water is heavier than a molecule of brake fluid. So on a molecular level, would brake fluid that's bonded with water tend to sink? I don't know. It's been my experience that the fluid I bleed out of the calipers is darker than the fluid in the reservoir.
     
  6. Dec 15, 2019 at 6:15 AM
    #6
    FirstGenVol

    FirstGenVol Brake Czar

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    I'll just add that bleeding the brakes with the 2 person method was very frustrsting. When I used an actual bleeder tool it was a lot easier and more effective. I'm buying a Mityvac soon.
     
  7. Dec 15, 2019 at 7:54 AM
    #7
    KarmaKannon

    KarmaKannon Master of None

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    My hand pump style bleeder is getting a little worn out and now I have a good air compressor. I'm thinking a new power bleeder might be in my future. I always fly solo in the garage so I can't manually bleed anything. Thanks for posting op.
     
  8. Dec 15, 2019 at 8:05 AM
    #8
    Scuba

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    A friend of mine made something similar that used a rubber plumbing fixture mated to the end of an air hose and attached to a little MV50 air compressor. The rubber connector got clamped to the MC in place of the OE cap and pressurized the system.
    I used to borrow it every 2 years to flush my brakes.

    Thanks for sharing.
     
  9. Dec 15, 2019 at 8:49 AM
    #9
    Darkness

    Darkness Allergic to white

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    Nice job! I considered doing that but didnt think it would hold, I like running mine at 15psi. I don't like how the Motive one uses a chain and clamps under the MC but it works.

    20191215_084729.jpg
     
  10. Dec 15, 2019 at 10:27 AM
    #10
    Vince

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  11. Dec 15, 2019 at 1:11 PM
    #11
    foxtrapper

    foxtrapper New Member

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    water refuses to mix with silicone brake fluid, and will lay there at the low points. Typically the bottom of a caliper.

    Water does mix with glycol brake fluids, just like it does with antifreeze. But, that mixing is localized because of the brake lines. The fluid does not do much mixing up and down those lines. So the skunky, well mixed, fluid in the calipers does not really work its way up into the master cylinder.
     
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  12. Dec 15, 2019 at 1:23 PM
    #12
    Darkness

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  13. Dec 15, 2019 at 3:36 PM
    #13
    remington351

    remington351 [OP] New Member

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    The same question posed another way. "If we have a closed system from master cylinder reservoir to brake caliper with no cracks or openings to the atmosphere, and we start with pure DOT3 fluid in the reservoir and brake lines, how does said water ever get into this closed system?"

    I was confused about this as well. Except for the moisture in the air between the master cylinder reservoir and cap, which seems minimal considering it's an inch of air vs about 2 quarts of DOT3, I couldn't see a path for extra moisture to necessitate the flushing of fluid every 2-3 years.

    ECBBrakes.com says the following:

    You might also expect that once the brake fluid reservoir cap is screwed on tight there is no chance of water getting into the vehicles brake fluid, but in fact plastic is porous to a small degree and hence the rubber brake lines and plastic reservoir will allow a tiny amount of moisture to pass through it. The fact that glycol fluids gradually degrade in quality over time as water is absorbed is the reason that hydraulic braking systems must be periodically flushed through with new fresh brake fluid in order to maintain good braking performance. On a typical road car, replacing the fluid every 3 years is considered the minimum but the conditions under which the vehicle is driven also play a factor here. It is not uncommon for track cars to replace the fluid every 3-6 months, or racers to replace fluid every single event!
     
  14. Dec 15, 2019 at 3:58 PM
    #14
    Professional Hand Model

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    So I’m still wondering what is the benefit of a full power flush (time and effort) vs. a periodic interval refresh 2-3 month suck and fill? (Assuming using fresh unopened fluid every time. Assuming replaced fluid isn’t fully toasted).

    Whatever moisture is trapped in suspension with DOT3 is it evenly spread or pooled down near the bleeders?
     
  15. Dec 15, 2019 at 8:43 PM
    #15
    Aerindel

    Aerindel New Member

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    I think its one of those things that matters more in theory than practice.

    I mean, yes, your caliper piston seals may last ten years longer or something if you religiously flush the brake fluid. But I also suspect there are millions of cars on the roads that have never had their brake fluid flushed.

    How long does a caliper last anyway, 10 years? 20 years? They aren't expensive, or hard to replace, and won't last forever even if the seal never wears out.

    The only time I ever flush the system is when I need to replace a caliper, a rare occurrence. Since I have to bleed anyway I just bleed until the fluid turns clear. But I don't consider brake flushing a useful or routine action.
     
  16. Dec 16, 2019 at 6:21 AM
    #16
    JohnLakeman

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    If I understand the OP, the proposal is to pressure all the dirty fluid out of the system using air, then to fill the MC reservoir with fresh fluid (multiple times?) and use air pressure to force that fresh fluid into the system to displace the air?

    As tempting as it would be to get a cleaner brake system, I believe there is a risk for having chronic "soft pedal" afterward. Auto assembly plants use pressurized fluid for the original filling of brake systems. That equipment has the pressure and volume to get ALL the air out of the toughest to bleed system including the ABS controller. Once the air is out of the system, I would be reluctant to reintroduce air into the ABS controller and high points.

    Weekend warriors setting out to replace their brakes often have chronic soft pedal afterward, probably by letting the MC go empty during bleeding (shame on them). The ultimate remedy is supposed to be Techstream bleeding, but even dealer techs have been unsuccessful getting a hard pedal after an owner screwup. (Part of that may be convincing the techs that performance really is compromised, when the brakes still work fine albeit with more pedal travel.)
    Gen3 seem to report more problems with difficult bleeding. Just sayin'..."Be careful out there". :crapstorm:
     
  17. Dec 16, 2019 at 6:32 AM
    #17
    FirstGenVol

    FirstGenVol Brake Czar

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    You make some good points. My thoughts on using the bleeder vales is that I don't think fluid that is 15 feet from the master cylinder is going to defy gravity and make it up there when you try and do a stuck and fill. So each time I empty the reservoir I'm probably just sucking a lot of the same fluid that I put in previously. There is no way I'm drawing out the worst of the fluid.

    Every article I pull up talks about the importance of getting in fresh fluid every few years since it likes to absorb water.
     
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  18. Dec 16, 2019 at 6:47 AM
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    tvpierce

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    That's incorrect. You seal and pressurize the reservoir which forces fluid out of the system when a bleeder is opened. Just like when you bleed brakes using the "traditional" pump-release method, you continually top-up the reservoir, so as to never allow the level of the fluid to get low enough to allow air into the master cylinder.

    Pressure bleeding is how brakes are bled in most professional shops. The positive pressure is more reliable and thorough than vacuum bleeding.
     
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  19. Dec 16, 2019 at 6:57 AM
    #19
    bmf4069

    bmf4069 Yup, that's car parts in a dishwasher

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    When I did my WL calipers, I bled all the fluid through till new came out, then put on the new calipers. To avoid nasty brake juice in my shiny new calipers.
     
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  20. Dec 16, 2019 at 7:23 AM
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    JohnLakeman

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    Ah...So this is just standard pressure bleeding. I thought something new was being proposed.

    I have a MitiVac, but never use it. It works fine except when the bleeder threads allow air to be drawn back into the system. I've chased my tail enough with vacuum bleeding.
     
  21. Dec 16, 2019 at 7:48 AM
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    JohnLakeman

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    I don't recall ever seeing any free water in used brake fluid. I don't think absorbed water ever separates from brake fluid at any level. What does happen is that cast iron components, and steel brake lines (once the interior tin coating is gone), will corrode with exposure to water-saturated brake fluid. Eventually, sludge containing corrosion scale is formed, and this is what wears seals and scores piston bores. Periodic fluid flushing is intended to clean out any sludge accumulation for extended seal/bore life.
     
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  22. Dec 16, 2019 at 9:19 AM
    #22
    tvpierce

    tvpierce Formerly New Member

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    Agreed. I've never seen water separate after being absorbed by brake fluid. But I've seen some cloudy brake fluid, which I assume is saturated with water.
     
  23. Dec 16, 2019 at 2:50 PM
    #23
    Professional Hand Model

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    My mechanic, who today had removed the rear drivers brake line at the backing plate, just quickly put a rubber stopper over the line. When he put it back on he removed the rubber and screwed it on quickly. He did not do any pedal pumping. Brakes feel fine.

    I’ve been doing the suck and fills for about 2 years now and I am not seeing any reason, here or elsewhere, to change from this method unless major service is required.

    DOT3. Keep it fresh with suck and fills. About 8oz. out and 8oz. fresh poured in. Conveniently, DOT3 sells in little 8oz. bottles for about $4.

    Overly done at 4 times a year equals about $16. Cheapo methodo. KISS.
     
  24. Dec 16, 2019 at 5:05 PM
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    DSTundra

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    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
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  25. Dec 17, 2019 at 2:16 AM
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    tvpierce

    tvpierce Formerly New Member

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    I think your method keeps the fluid in the reservoir and the master cyclinder fresh, but likely does nothing for the downstream components like the ABS pump and calipers.
     
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  26. Dec 17, 2019 at 4:57 AM
    #26
    Professional Hand Model

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    Your comment made me search for a diagram which makes me understand things better. The system is not circular so that the fluid ‘circulates’ back. Never thought it through until now and seeing this diagram helps.

    I reverse my anti brake bleeder position now and stand corrected.

    Thank you.

    upload_2019-12-17_7-49-53.jpg
     
  27. Dec 17, 2019 at 5:47 AM
    #27
    tvpierce

    tvpierce Formerly New Member

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    Correct. And the calipers being the low spot are effectively the "drain trap" where things accumulate. Great diagram.
     
  28. Dec 17, 2019 at 7:40 AM
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    omgboost

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  29. Dec 17, 2019 at 9:06 AM
    #29
    tvpierce

    tvpierce Formerly New Member

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    This thread jogged my feeble memory on a DIY master cylinder adapter using simple plumbing fittings to pressure bleed a Toyota. It took some searching, but I found the link:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/10599256@N04/sets/72157601047473166/

    The guy made his to connect to his compressor via quick-connect. I'd be concerned about over-pressurizing since there's so little volume in the reservoir. I think I'll make one of these using PVC instead of cast iron fittings, and a barbed end so I can use it with my Motive bleeder. I like to have the pressure at 15-20 psi... and I'd be concerned that the reservoir cap adapter @remington351 made at the beginning of this thread might not hold at that pressure.

    The Power Probe cap looks great, but the cheap bastard in me can't drop the $43 if I can DIY it for $5.
     
  30. Dec 17, 2019 at 9:25 AM
    #30
    Scuba

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    Thanks for the link. Literally exactly what I was speaking about in post #8.
    Never had any issues using it.
     

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