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Don’t Forget the Rear

Discussion in 'Long Travel Suspension' started by KevinK, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. Nov 17, 2019 at 11:28 PM
    #1
    KevinK

    KevinK [OP] SGU - High Speed Overlander

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    Lots of focus on front LT kits and options, but very little discussion about the rear. Let’s talk about dat ass.

    To really push the truck, you actually want more travel in the rear than the front. This applies to both high and low speed situations. In high speed it equals less bucking. In low speed crawling it equals more traction at droop.

    There have been recent attempts by a couple manufacturers at rear shock relocations under the bed to try and accomplish rear SUA (spring under axle) LT without a bed cage or cantilever (bellcrank, but I’ll save that argument for later). A bed cage allows the use of longer shocks and more linear motion ratios - good for tuning.

    These under-bed upper shock relocations increase the shock angle and ultimately make the motion ratio digressive (at the droop end of the stroke axle and shock movement is close to 1:1, but at the bump end the axle will move maybe twice as far as the shock). Tuning digressive motion ratios is pretty difficult and relies on a very stiff valve stack to maintain bottom out resistance. Bypass and hydro bump tuning can help offset that, but we’ve seen a number of failures of the relocation brackets because of the sheer amount of force they have to resist right near the top out.

    high shock angle
    F9724B7D-95FC-473A-93FD-C8106200E4D4.jpg

    broken shit

    7DAD0819-87CC-486E-ABA4-CC22DF40F4AE.jpg
    F0D9A617-0C74-4851-8F4C-AF35D8374235.jpg


    Bed cage LT solutions are great for performance, but can make use of the bed a compromise. If you plan to carry much gear for camping, or otherwise use your bed for ‘truck’ duties, you’ll need to get creative in how you do that. It’s possible to carry all your stuff with you, as has been demonstrated by a number of the Uberfahrts and BASTRDs and others, you just have to work around it.

    Bed cage LT cuts holes in the bed near the wheel wells in order to pass longer shocks through the bed and connect them to the cage built to accept the top mount of the shocks. The cage should be connected directly to the frame, although there are bolt-in kits out there that use the stock bed mounting bolts. Bed cage LT is probably the most straightforward rear SUA LT and probably the best bang for your buck if you can deal with the bed space thing. Lots of info out there and it’s tried and true. Shock tuning is fairly easy as the motion ratio is mostly linear.

    7F4DE486-FBB5-46D0-80A1-F43515ABCFD7.jpg

    9A0D278C-1722-4350-88DA-0C43B594A001.jpg

    BDFD6914-1F7C-4534-9A10-8B0EA1132F48.jpg

    creative solution

    FB2B4271-17EC-406A-A9B1-6D342347782F.jpg

    8EC2AD99-7DB5-4EAF-9FE0-F049D496FCBF.jpg

    B469690C-AC88-413F-9A28-374E57DD77EB.jpg


    I’ll save my argument for why what is commonly referred to as a cantilever, is really a bellcrank for later. You could also call it a pushrod, but that tends to conjure images of open wheel race cars like F1 or Prototype. Some folks also refer to it as a mezzanine arm. Basically a bellcrank suspension uses SUA like a bed cage rear end, but locates the shocks under the bed by putting the shock cage under the bed and using a pivot arm to attach the axle to the shocks. Tuning shocks on a bellcrank has the bad reputation of being difficult, but that seems mostly due to poor geometries in the early days of designing them. The biggest difficulty is that the linear motion of the axle gets converted to an arc motion which causes the shock to swing as it compresses. We can argue the finer points later.

    Basically a cantilever or bellcrank allows you to keep full use of the bed with minimal compromise in shock tuning. Cost and complexity are the downsides.

    6A9D00CF-C2E0-4720-9981-0ECD67A1F559.jpg

    72BC2633-E447-4D8E-9757-B1F2818D7F35.jpg

    non-Tundra
    C0853A96-4C99-4224-8035-3C4CD6FFF532.jpg

    Links are dope and offer the highest level of tunability and travel in rear LT. They lack some of the weight bearing benefit of leafs, being fairly prone to squat when loaded or stink bug when unloaded, depending on your ride height adjustments. Links completely replace the rear leaf and shock system with a 3 or 4 link setup, and coilovers like you find on the front of the truck. When you look at trophy trucks, you’re seeing links.

    The links attach to the frame of the truck under the cab and there are one per side used to locate the rear axle front to back, regardless of whether it’s a 3 or 4 link system. A 3 link then uses another link parallel in geometry to the first two and attaches to the top of the axle to prevent wrap. A 3 link then has a 4th link (yes, really) that is a panhard bar and runs sideways across the truck to locate the axle left to right. One end attaches to the frame and one end attaches to the axle on the other side of the truck.

    A 4 link is similar to a 3 link with the first two links, but instead of a single parallel link to prevent wrap, it uses two links to connect to the top of the axle. Since there are two links, they can be triangulated in such a way that they also do the centering left to right, and a panhard bar isn’t needed.

    The springs and shocks on a linked rear end connect to roughly the middle of the lower links and are a true cantilever (this is why I get persnickety about calling a bellcrank a cantilever. It’s not, links are). The pivot/shock/axle orientation makes tuning spring size and shock valves very straight forward. Through the entire stroke, the motion ratio is constant. Links will pull a fuckton of travel and flatbill ratchet bitches.

    893ABD44-9908-45EF-9374-60862B3D4901.jpg

    8C002493-6A8B-47C5-8FE1-8D37186738C0.jpg

    E8C6826E-DD07-4F6B-AEBB-DF5C4461FD2E.jpg

    But what do I know? We’re still on stock springs. Here’s our droop compared to @papasmurf to show the usefulness of spring under LT even on technical trails.

    C7A95CC9-75F5-4AA5-9A05-5ED0FD8C6441.jpg

    7BE7062A-1377-4515-A4C9-58E47B3D33A0.jpg

    Photos and contributions and ideas from a lot of folks: @osidepunker @roypark @papasmurf @831Tun @Vizsla @TRD15559 @n2deep @Bo-Hunter @Spolar @zackbremer and a whole shitload of other people I either forget or don’t know their names here or aren’t on the forum.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  2. Nov 18, 2019 at 4:41 AM
    #2
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    Says the guy with stock leafs...
     
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  3. Nov 18, 2019 at 5:11 AM
    #3
    KevinK

    KevinK [OP] SGU - High Speed Overlander

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    Those who can’t, teach.
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  4. Nov 18, 2019 at 7:17 AM
    #4
    roypark

    roypark Semi-pro High Fiver

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    A little of this and a little of that. Its pretty run of the mill.
    Those who can’t teach, teach PE.
    - Dewey Finn
     
  5. Nov 21, 2019 at 5:54 AM
    #5
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    I disagree. thats overkill and extra weight and cost for no good reason.

    Boxing the frame and retaining the stock x brace is plenty strong. I have been proving that for over 5 years now. The key is to form the boxing plates to the contours of the x brace. I also believe this is stronger torsionally than straight tubes.

    But it sure does look pretty ;)
     
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  6. Nov 21, 2019 at 6:11 AM
    #6
    roypark

    roypark Semi-pro High Fiver

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    A little of this and a little of that. Its pretty run of the mill.
    I submit another option

    E8CA5D11-0512-4049-8996-2ADBB21944B7.jpg
     
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  7. Nov 21, 2019 at 6:13 AM
    #7
    Civiceg94

    Civiceg94 New Member

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    Horn baffle delete Fox 2.5 DSC Setup DAP TUNED RW WHEELS 285/75/17 AT3 LTX
    :popcorn:
     
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  8. Nov 21, 2019 at 6:21 AM
    #8
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    Everybodys bed is gonna hit the cab a little unless you have a full cab cage. If dave goes as hard as me you'll see the same thing on his truck.

    Anyways, its minor and it only happened one time when I jumped it 4' in the air
     
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  9. Nov 21, 2019 at 6:23 AM
    #9
    roypark

    roypark Semi-pro High Fiver

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    A little of this and a little of that. Its pretty run of the mill.
    For those listening at home, this is not the type of comment that results in anything popcorn worthy. Wait til Kevin starts talking about shim stacks, SDHQ or KISS.
     
  10. Nov 21, 2019 at 6:26 AM
    #10
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    Yep. I said that. And for 5 years my bed never hit the cab UNTIL I JUMPED IT 4' IN THE AIR TWO MONTHS AGO

    you sound like CNN writing a story about my frame boxing
     
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  11. Nov 21, 2019 at 6:27 AM
    #11
    roypark

    roypark Semi-pro High Fiver

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    A little of this and a little of that. Its pretty run of the mill.
    Except for one time Soop!
     
  12. Nov 21, 2019 at 6:27 AM
    #12
    roypark

    roypark Semi-pro High Fiver

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    A little of this and a little of that. Its pretty run of the mill.
    Alex stop YELLING. LOL
     
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  13. Nov 21, 2019 at 6:30 AM
    #13
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    this time I was yelling LOL
     
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  14. Nov 25, 2019 at 6:55 PM
    #14
    KevinK

    KevinK [OP] SGU - High Speed Overlander

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    mmmmm shim stacks.
     
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  15. Aug 31, 2020 at 4:52 PM
    #15
    liltrok

    liltrok New Member

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    At the end of the day, what product/company is recommended for each tier? For me, I want everything under the bed specifically the relocation's and not the cantilever cuz I want to keep the spare in stock location. Appreciate the feedback.
     
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  16. Aug 31, 2020 at 5:43 PM
    #16
    KevinK

    KevinK [OP] SGU - High Speed Overlander

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    I think @Vizsla can talk about one kind of relocation and @n2deep can talk about another. Pretty sure @Spolar and @jc153 are both running the same relocation as each other now too, or maybe I fucked that up.

    I think MCM is doing a nice ADS undermount with Deavers.
     
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  17. Aug 31, 2020 at 6:04 PM
    #17
    jc153

    jc153 Speed-ish Glamper

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    You’re all over the place Kevin! @KevinK hahaha
    @n2deep and I have the MCM Fab under bed setup with ADS bypasses and Deaver SUA.
    I believe @Spolar and @zackbremer have the Camburg setup with Fox and King respectively and Deaver SOA.
     
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  18. Aug 31, 2020 at 6:15 PM
    #18
    KevinK

    KevinK [OP] SGU - High Speed Overlander

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    There ya go. I knew I fucked that up. :rofl:
     
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  19. Aug 31, 2020 at 6:17 PM
    #19
    liltrok

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    How's it working out for ya? Travel #? Any complaints or compliments?
     
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  20. Aug 31, 2020 at 6:49 PM
    #20
    jc153

    jc153 Speed-ish Glamper

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    I just installed it so don’t have much feedback. The shock mount fab work is sold. I haven’t done any off road testing yet. IIRC I’m pulling right about 15” of travel.
    @n2deep has been running the setup for over a year and likes it. Maybe he will chime in with details.
     
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  21. Mar 4, 2021 at 10:01 PM
    #21
    WSDMetal

    WSDMetal Motorsports Fabrication & Design

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    There is some good info in the 1st post.

    Rear LT is incredibly important for going fast over big stuff. In addition to increased wheel travel, proper damping and chassis stiffness is key. If you have a wiggly wet noodle frame, you will have unpredictable performance.
     
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  22. Dec 2, 2022 at 12:03 PM
    #22
    Marvthehamster

    Marvthehamster New Member

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    Does anyone make a shock relocation kit that retains a “good” shock geometry AND a stock spring configuration while appreciably increasing rear travel? I see the Camburg kit getting crapped on a little bit here, not sure of any others that are viewable online.

    I’m looking to upgrade my rear suspension and have been looking at “mid travel” packages that would include bypass shocks and new leaf springs (and prob bump stops at some point). Now that I learning more about rear suspension setups it seems like if I’m doing all this work why don’t I relocate the shocks while I’m at it and get some better travel. I think my top choice in the mid travel category was the mcm/ads/Deaver kit. Does a shock relocate kit (without going spring under) even get me much more travel over that mcm mid travel kit?

    What say you guys who know better than me?
     
  23. Dec 2, 2022 at 12:54 PM
    #23
    GravityGear

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    Matt at MCM is pretty adamant that his setup meets and even exceeds relocation numbers. He's got a pretty specific custom ADS setup.

    You're limited by the length of shock you can squeeze between the upper and lower mount. If you're really pushing for it, you may be able to get someone to fab up some under-bed shock towers and under-bed c-notch. That would probably max out your rear setup without pushing shocks into the bed. It'll probably be a weld heavy job, but there's plenty of 4x4 fab shops here in CO.
     
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  24. Dec 2, 2022 at 6:33 PM
    #24
    Marvthehamster

    Marvthehamster New Member

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    Thanks for the input. I’ve spoken to Matt but not on this specific issue since I just started to dig deeper into rear setups. If I can get some amount of increased rear travel without relocating shocks or going SUA I think it’ll serve my needs. Plus I can install that mid travel in my driveway without the need for fab work.

    So does the Camburg (or similar) shock relocation kit take you into LT territory or would it still be considered “mid travel”? Is there a consensus on where LT truly begins?
     
  25. Dec 2, 2022 at 7:46 PM
    #25
    GravityGear

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    For me, anything less than SUA and bedcage is NOT long travel.
     
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  26. Dec 2, 2022 at 8:05 PM
    #26
    reywcms

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    Another thing to think about also is the angle of these shocks with under bed kits are a bit more difficult to tune from what I’ve heard. My old man’s rig is currently on a total chaos spring over LT rear with about 12” travel. Now he’s moving to spring under and bed cage similar to mine. Think long term lol You’ll also want to think about is what weight you’ll be carrying.

    84B6B608-D63E-4899-9CD3-2F6C8EA8DACD.jpg
     
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  27. Dec 2, 2022 at 8:14 PM
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    BiggHertz

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    keep in mind these are musings of a mad man @KevinK :rofl:

    Most failures witnessed in bolt-on upper shock relocation mounts stems from:
    • internally bottoming the shock out on compression (incorrectly clocking the lower shock mount on the axle)
    • Topping out “overly extending” the shock at droop. (No limit straps)
    You mentioned you’re in search of travel…what type of off-roading do you plan on doing?

    Crawly guys tend to favor down travel(droop), go fast guys tend to favor up travel(compression/bump).
     
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  28. Dec 3, 2022 at 12:31 PM
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    Marvthehamster

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    I figured improper install could be a factor in the failures of relocation kits. I value everyone’s opinions about what they’ve seen, good or bad.

    that’s a good question about what my use will be. I want to be able to comfortably navigate crappy fire roads around 30 mph and handle a hit from a pothole or water bar. I’m in CO so getting over some passes in rocky/crawly terrain happens quite a bit too. I’ve gotten into some fairly gnarly stuff with the truck already I just want to do it more comfortably and confidently. I’ve currently got fat bobs coilovers up front and a 1.5” block in the rear. Running 295/70/18’s and spider trax spacers on stock sr5 rims.

    I started really looking into upgrading my suspension after doing some off roading in a 3rd gen raptor this past summer. I don’t really have any experience wheeling in nicely modified full size trucks outside of that. I was really impressed with the raptor and I’d like to get close to or match that type of ride.

    You guys think I can do that without going crazy with my truck?
     
  29. Dec 3, 2022 at 12:45 PM
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    Squatting Pigeon

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    Dont know why this wasnt stickied before, but it is now :cool:
     
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  30. Dec 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM
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    BiggHertz

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    you're other post...do these conditions hold true? if so, you're in contradiction territory....IMHO.



     
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